Is there any video anywhere of the Yang 59 posture Long Fist

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Is there any video anywhere of the Yang 59 posture Long Fist

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu May 16, 2019 10:26 am

Does anyone know if there is any videos that can be posted of the Yang family 59 posture Long Fist form?
Sometimes called the Yang Fast form or the fast small frame form (but so many phony versions of Yang small frame forms around).

Doing some research, badly needed.

I found some videos, but they contradict each other, so . . .
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Re: Is there any video anywhere of the Yang 59 posture Long Fist

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu May 16, 2019 10:50 am

Someone on Youtube claimed it was a Yang form, but its a Northern Chinese long fist form.
Has some common postures with TJQ though

Anyone know anything about this form? linage>
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Sat May 18, 2019 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is there any video anywhere of the Yang 59 posture Long Fist

Postby Bao on Thu May 16, 2019 11:22 am

From what I have understood there is actually no set or fixed fast/small frame. It was more a way to train and practice movements and that is why everyone created their own personal way of connecting movements together. And that is why they are all different. Everyone did "their own thing" right from the beginning.
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Re: Is there any video anywhere of the Yang 59 posture Long Fist

Postby marvin8 on Thu May 16, 2019 5:03 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:Does anyone know if there is any videos that can be posted of the Yang family 59 posture Long Fist form?
Sometimes called the Yang Fast form or the fast small frame form (but so many phony versions of Yang small frame forms around).

Doing some research, badly needed.

I found some videos, but they contradict each other, so . . .

Is this it?

From another website:
emenem wrote:Re: Yang Fast Form (aka Long Boxing aka 59 movment)
Post Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:13 pm

Hello,

I too study in a Yang Sau Chung lineage school. While I have not yet learned the form, I know of it as it is part of our curriculum. The Changquan Form is not usually referred to as "Fast Form" in the lineage. The english translation is "Long Boxing", I have heard it referred to as Yang Lu Chan's fighting form. It is typically taught after about 5 years after going through all the main weapons (spear, dao, jian) and push hand training. Below is a video of one of Jim Uglow's students (Chu King Hung and Yang Ma Li). It appears that outside the lineage, some other Yang Style schools know it as seen in the second video (Tseng Ju Pai). As you can see the execution can vary quite a bit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jizDLvzjtk

http://youtu.be/jk3xRfgHAqY (dead link)


2nd video link is dead. But, here is a video of Tseng Ju Pai:

Tseng Ju Pai (1900 - 1995) performs portions of the Traditional Yang style Tai Chi Chuan Long Form. Tseng Ju Pai was 4th generation Yang style master from southern China, a student of Yang Cheng Fu.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-GJ70DAJjU

From "Yang Style Tai Chi Long Boxing—Yang Cheng Fu's Advanced Set"
Peter Lim Tian Tek' wrote:
Historical Background

Before going to Shanghai in the 1925, Yang Cheng Fu taught not only the now well known large frame (also known as the 'Six Routines' since it was normally broken up into six sections and practiced one section at a time when learning and eventually linking all six together to form one long routine) but to his advanced students he also taught a set of Tai Chi Long Boxing.
After he went to Shanghai at the invitation of Chen Wei Ming to popularise Tai Chi Chuan, he dropped Tai Chi Long Boxing from the public syllabus he taught. This was because all the elements needed for success were present in the large frame, the Tai Chi Long Boxing being a refinement of the principles within the large frame. Another reason being that in his teaching tours to the major cities in China, he did not have much time to teach the students gathered there and so the large frame alone was taught.

The early large frame of Yang Cheng Fu included Fa-Chin (explosive emmission of strength) with slow and fast movements. Later the explosive strength emmissions were replaced with extending the limb with qi which is a basic method of practice. It must be noted that not all the movements were practiced with Fa-Chin and that even with the changes in speed the requirements for smoothness, continuity, relaxation and rootedness remain.

Till today, it is still only taught as an advanced set (by only a handful of teachers) after one has attained a sufficiently high level of practice in the large frame. Normally, only when one has learnt the large frame and does it with Fa-Chin in it does one progress to the Tai Chi Long Boxing. It is relatively unknown but remains the advanced set of Yang Cheng Fu's Tai Chi Boxing.

The Form

Tai Chi Long Boxing consists of 59 postures, less than the large frame but most of its postures are derived from the large frame. It is an agile form, much more mobile than the large frame and is even more combat oriented than the large frame.

In order to practice this form effectively, one should have already attained all the aspects of the large frame. All the joints should be 'open', supple and relaxed. The root should be sunk and clearly single weighted, the five bows of the body utilised coordinatively, the spirit and head raised and musculature relaxed. Energy is generated from the feet, directed by the waist and functions through the hands and fingers.

The speed of practice is faster than the large frame. Fa-Chin is present so there are fast movements during explosions of strength. It is also relatively higher standing than the large frame. Proper rooting isn't just standing low and one should already have gained an understanding of that before learning this form. It is a lively form and embued with much spiritedness and intense focus. It is similar in many ways to Yang Shao Hou's small frame combat set.

At advanced levels both the large frame and the Long Boxing forms are practiced. Because it is so combat oriented, some have referred to it as Yang Cheng Fu's fighting form. Others, because of its faster speed its often called the Fast Form as well. Tung Ying Jieh's fast form is derived in part from Tai Chi Long Boxing and still retains some of its postures.

Because it is a relatively short form, some masters have added postures to the original to lengthen it. This has resulted in versions of Tai Chi Long Boxing with as many as 150 postures in the form. Fortunately, the original form was recorded down by Chen Wei Ming and Yang Shou Chung, Yang Cheng Fu's eldest son, taught it (there were some additional posture names given to the interim movements but upon close examination, the form is almost exactly the same).

Combat Characteristics

The main type of attacking chin used in Tai Chi Long Boxing is Leng Chin or Cold Chin as in Cold Without Defense, it is a spectacular very fast and short Chin that so shocks the enemy that he breaks out in a cold sweat.

The closing of distance to the opponent is done quickly, sometimes in a leaping fashion. The movements, though fast, are neat and susscint, relaxed and sunk. In postures like 'Detecting Root' which is similar to 'Apparent Closure', the fingers are used to detect the root of the opponent as a prelude to a Fa-Chin attack. Very important for an effective attack. There are quick changes in direction, deliberate avoiding of incoming attacks and smaller circular movements. High, middle and low level attacks are accounted for and are present in the form. Foot stomping, slaps and whipping attacks are present as are limb breaking and dislocating techniques.

There are chin na techniques as well as releases from chin na techniques in the form, most of these are targeted at anatomically vulnerable locations like accupoints. Specific accupoints are also attacked by a variety of different methods and 'illegal' applications are present as well, since in a real fight there are no rules. Like the large frame, each part of every technique has an inherent application and the form, though fast, is subtle as well. All this while still conforming to the principles set out in the Tai Chi Chuan Classics.

Because the movements of the form are relatively high standing and small, they are very practical to use either in rather restrictive work clothing and in small places. Control and usage of the opponent's centre and momentum play a part in all the techniques and in every technique there are inherently 4 techniques of neutralising (Hua), holding (Na), hitting (Da) and emitting (Fa). Listening to Chin or Ting Chin is a crucial element in combat Tai Chi Chuan and this sensitivity is present throughout the form.

Tai Chi Long Boxing Today

Yang Cheng Fu's Tai Chi Long Boxing is seldom taught today. It is practiced by relatively few Tai Chi Chuan exponents even in China. Only those who trained in the earlier period with Yang Cheng Fu or his close disciples got to learn the form. It was kept quite secret and in Chen Wei Ming's lineage, its sometimes referred to as Tai Chi Kept Boxing (kept or keep in Chinese is pronounced 'chang' which is phonetically the same as the Chinese term for long, so this is a Chinese pun), meaning that it was kept within doors and not transmitted outside.

Yang Shou Chung, Yang Cheng Fu's son, taught this form to his three daughters and some of his close disciples like Mr Yip Tai Tuck and Mr Chu Gin Soon. They continue the family tradition of teaching this rare form to advanced students. There are also other teachers who continue to teach this advanced set. It is fortunate that this rare form is not lost and continues to guide serious Tai Chi exponents on the intricacies of Tai Chi combat.
Last edited by marvin8 on Thu May 16, 2019 5:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is there any video anywhere of the Yang 59 posture Long Fist

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu May 16, 2019 5:46 pm

Great, thank you very much. Much appreciated.

About 20 years ago, when I was going around the country and outside the US, doing research for my book, I was shown many indoor sets, because of my sincerity of researching the history of the internal martial arts.
Among many different odd sets, which I have video record of, I was shown the Yang 59 Posture Long Fist, because they wanted me to see how it matched up to the Chen and Shaolin connections I was investigating in the Yang Large Frame set.
Finding a video copy of this set has been my holy grail since then.

Some of the other odd Yang sets have wound up online over the past 30 years (not from me), so I might post some of them here to see if you guys had any further historical / lineage insight into this sets, thank you
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Re: Is there any video anywhere of the Yang 59 posture Long Fist

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu May 16, 2019 6:00 pm

I was told that Yang Cheng Fu did not create the Yang Family Long Fist set, it was passed down to him,
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Re: Is there any video anywhere of the Yang 59 posture Long Fist

Postby wayne hansen on Thu May 16, 2019 6:13 pm

I am pretty sure if there was a fast set/fighting set around in YCF,S time Tung/Dong would have not needed to make up his own form
YSC,s form above has too much independent arm action for me to take it seriously
S
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Re: Is there any video anywhere of the Yang 59 posture Long Fist

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu May 16, 2019 6:27 pm

A really interesting video was taken down from Youtube, oh well
It was the 59 posture form done in great detail, I managed to save it before it was gone.

This set and the next one are pretty much the 59 posture YCF long fist, but no fajing showing:



This video looks like someone just doing the long form fast, don't think he is doing the Yang Shou Hou fast set, the postures are really different from that set.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Sat May 18, 2019 8:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is there any video anywhere of the Yang 59 posture Long Fist

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu May 16, 2019 6:33 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I am pretty sure if there was a fast set/fighting set around in YCF,S time Tung/Dong would have not needed to make up his own form
YSC,s form above has too much independent arm action for me to take it seriously
S


Well, Tung wasn't learning Yang from Yang Cheng Fu's uncles, so maybe that's a factor.

Chen did list the 59 postures in his sword book.

By the way, the Wu Fast Form is nothing like the Yang Fast Form (whichever Yang Lineage).
The Wu fast form is the long form done with combat body mechanics, it follows the long form postural pattern.

The Yang long fist form, fast or not, does not follow the postural pattern of the Large Frame long form, it is different set, whether comes from Ban Hou, Jian Hou, Cheng Fu, etc.

But, Yang Shou Hou's Small Frame Fast form (his Usage form) does follow the same pattern as the Long form, as does Wu Fast Form. Ma from Wu style even said as much when he saw Yang Shou Hou perform it.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Thu May 16, 2019 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is there any video anywhere of the Yang 59 posture Long Fist

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu May 16, 2019 6:53 pm

Yang Ban Hou fast set?

Deal or no deal?

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Re: Is there any video anywhere of the Yang 59 posture Long Fist

Postby Bao on Thu May 16, 2019 11:53 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I am pretty sure if there was a fast set/fighting set around in YCF,S time Tung/Dong would have not needed to make up his own form
YSC,s form above has too much independent arm action for me to take it seriously
S


Well, Tung wasn't learning Yang from Yang Cheng Fu's uncles, so maybe that's a factor.


Yang Cheng Fu only taught "the old style" in the beginning of his teaching and only his new style later and only performed his "new style" when in public.

Chen did list the 59 postures in his sword book.

salcanzonieri wrote:Yang Ban Hou fast set?

Deal or no deal?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0rGcVr4piw&t=54s


No deal. "Fast form" is "fighting form", more realistic approach to shadow boxing. In Yang style, "fast form" follow the fighting principle that hand moves before the body and the body follows. In practice, body should push the hand, but in fighting the hand goes first, body follows. Even Chen Xin mention this principle in his book. If you look at Wu Tunan's form which everyone complains about being bad Tai Chi, you can see that his body is very stationary and his arms moves independent from the body. Wu claims that he was taught this form by Yang Shao Hou and that it was created by Yang Luchan.

Maybe this, "The Chang Interview", might be interesting if you haven't read it before...

https://sifuondemand.com/node/730

A. My teacher was Yeung (Yang) Shou-hu the grandson of the founder of the Yeung (Yang) style, Yeung Lu-sum. (Yang Lu-Ch'an). I was with Yeung from 1911 until his death in 1930.

Q. Many people have commented upon the sometimes brutal nature of Yeung Shou-hu's teaching methods.

A. Yes, quite often we would finish a training period with blood on our vests and many bruises. Sometimes a bone would be broken. Yeung did not have many students.

Q. What are your views on this type of training?

A. It was good for me because I was very undisciplined in my younger days. I always wanted to fight and so with Yeung I got plenty of fighting. It taught us that if we did not do T'ai chi ch'uan correctly then we were hurt.

Q. Most people in the West would look upon this type of T'ai chi ch'uan training as being quite brutal. The style of Yang style T'ai chi ch'uan today in the West is not brutal at all.

A. I do not know about what they do in the West. But what they do in China is a modified form of T'ai chi ch'uan invented by Yeung Shou-hu's younger brother Yeung Cheng-po (Yang Cheng Fu). This style is Yeung Cheng-po's own invention so that many older and sick people can do T'ai chi ch'uan.

Q. What you are telling me is that there are actually two different types of Yeung style?

A. Yes, the one that was founded by Yeung Lu-sum is not like the Yeung Cheng-po type.

Q. What are the differences?

A. When my teacher used to do his T'ai chi ch'uan, we would often say that he was like a canon shot one second and like the great river in the next second. He was very energetic. The Yeung Cheng-po style is all soft and flowing with no canon shots.

Q. I have never heard of this and I find it quite interesting. Why is it that no-one knows that there are two Yeung types of T'ai chi ch'uan. Did Yeung Cheng-po do the original T'ai chi ch'uan?

A. In the early days before Yeung Cheng-po, we would only teach T'ai chi ch'uan to family members and very close friends, friends who were almost like family members. I am a family member, a second cousin to the Yeung Shou-hu family. Yeung Cheng-po was the first one to teach everyone and he became very famous all over China. So this is why we only ever hear about this style. Yes, Yeung Cheng-po did the original Yeung style of his grandfather before about 1915, then he changed it. Many people watched him practice the original style and he even taught a few people. But when he invented his own style and changed it over a few years, all of his students forgot about the original style.

Q. From what you know about him, was Yeung Cheng-po as good at self defence as we are told today?

A. Yes, he was very good at self defence. He was quite large and strong and he could also be quite brutal in his pushing hands but he learnt the original style first.

Q. Other T'ai chi ch'uan styles sometimes say that the Yeung (Yang) style is no good for self defence, why is this?

A. Yes, it is no good for self defence if you are talking about the Yeung Cheng-po style. But if you mean the Yeung Lu-sum style then it is very good for self defence. No-one outside of the family knows the Yeung Lu-sum style and so everyone thinks that the Yeung style is useless.
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Re: Is there any video anywhere of the Yang 59 posture Long Fist

Postby Trick on Fri May 17, 2019 12:42 am

taijiquan came around with ylc and is the same as the ycf form, other practice such as for example what wu tunan claim are from ylc comes from ma's similar to as xyq/tongbeiquan/shaolin which ylc had practiced...wu tunan kept the tradition of practicing tjq and those other ma's exercices..with time confusion has come around where practitioners also believe those "other" exercices also are taijiquan 8-)
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Re: Is there any video anywhere of the Yang 59 posture Long Fist

Postby wayne hansen on Fri May 17, 2019 2:00 am

Who is the Chen who's rd booook we are talking about
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Is there any video anywhere of the Yang 59 posture Long Fist

Postby Trick on Fri May 17, 2019 3:29 am

chen weiming ?
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Re: Is there any video anywhere of the Yang 59 posture Long Fist

Postby marvin8 on Fri May 17, 2019 5:06 am

wayne hansen wrote:Who is the Chen who's rd booook we are talking about


From "TAIJI SWORD Including TAIJI LONG BOXING" by Chen Weiming [1928]:

translation by Paul Brennan, Dec, 2012 wrote:增加太極長拳目錄
CATALOGUE OF POSTURES IN THE TAIJI LONG BOXING SET AS TAUGHT BY YANG CHENGFU
[The name Long Boxing certainly does not mean this let set is longer than the standard one, for it is in fact shorter. (Long before Zheng Manqing had come up with his famous short form, Yang Chengfu had already made one, though it is somewhat tricky that the Long set is not the “long set”.) The name Long Boxing refers to another name for Taiji Boxing itself, explained as being like river flowing into ocean, on and on ceaselessly, representing flow. Going by this definition, Long Boxing, which is a literal translation, connotatively translates as Flowing Boxing. That Yang Chengfu, unless it was an earlier Yang, chose to call this set Taiji Long Boxing as opposed to the other set being merely Taiji Boxing suggests the standard set may have been considered to be more of a posture awareness set while the Long Boxing set was used more as the actual flow set, though this of course is only a speculation.]

攬雀尾
[1] CATCH THE SPARROW BY THE TAIL
抎手
[2] CLOUDING HANDS
摟膝拗步
[3] BRUSH KNEE IN A CROSSED STANCE
琵琶式
[4] LUTE POSTURE
進步搬攔錘
[5] ADVANCE, PARRY, BLOCK, PUNCH
播箕式
[6] WINNOWING BASKET POSTURE
十字手
[7] CROSSED HANDS
抱虎歸山
[8] CAPTURE THE TIGER AND SEND IT BACK TO ITS MOUNTAIN
單鞭
[9] SINGLE WHIP
提手
[10] RAISE THE HANDS
肘下錘
[11] PUNCH UNDER ELBOW
摟膝打錘
[12] BRUSH KNEE, PUNCH
轉身蹬脚
[13] TURN AROUND, PRESSING KICK
進步指襠錘
[14] ADVANCE, PUNCH TO THE CROTCH
野馬分鬃
[15] WILD HORSE VEERS ITS MANE
進步攬雀尾
[16] ADVANCE, CATCH THE SPARROW BY THE TAIL
單鞭
[17] SINGLE WHIP
玉女穿梭
[18] MAIDEN WORKS THE SHUTTLE
攬雀尾
[19] CATCH THE SPARROW BY THE TAIL
轉身野馬分鬃
[20] TURN AROUND, WILD HORSE VEERS ITS MANE
轉身單鞭下式
[21] TURN BACK, LOW-POSTURED SINGLE WHIP
金雞獨立
[22] GOLDEN ROOSTER STANDS ON ONE LEG
倒輦猴頭
[23] RETREAT, DRIVING AWAY THE MONKEY’S HEAD
斜飛式
[24] DIAGONAL FLYING POSTURE
提手
[25] RAISE THE HANDS
白鶴晾翅
[26] WHITE CRANE COOLS ITS WINGS
摟膝拗步
[27] BRUSH KNEE IN A CROSSED STANCE
海底珍珠
[28] PEARL UNDER THE SEA
扇通臂
[29] FAN THROUGH THE ARMS
撇身錘
[30] TORSO-FLUNG PUNCH
上步搬攔錘
[31] STEP FORWARD, PARRY, BLOCK, PUNCH
進步攬雀尾
[32] ADVANCE, CATCH THE SPARROW BY THE TAIL
單鞭
[33] SINGLE WHIP
抎手
[34] CLOUDING HANDS
單鞭
[35] SINGLE WHIP
高探馬
[36] RISING UP AND REACHING OUT TO THE HORSE
左右蹬脚
[37] PRESSING KICK TO BOTH SIDES
轉身蹬脚
[38] TURN AROUND, PRESSING KICK
左右摟膝
[39] BRUSH KNEE ON BOTH SIDES
雙叉手
[40] DOUBLE INSERTING HANDS
轉身踢脚
[41] TURN AROUND, KICK
左打虎式
[42] LEFT FIGHTING TIGER POSTURE
雙風貫耳
[43] DOUBLE WINDS THROUGH THE EARS
左蹬脚
[44] LEFT PRESSING KICK
轉身蹬脚
[45] TURN AROUND, PRESSING KICK
上步搬攔錘
[46] STEP FORWARD, PARRY, BLOCK, PUNCH
上步攬雀尾
[47] STEP FORWARD, CATCH THE SPARROW BY THE TAIL
高探馬
[48] RISING UP AND REACHING OUT TO THE HORSE
十字腿
[49] CROSSED-BODY KICK
上步攬雀尾
[50] STEP FORWARD, CATCH THE SPARROW BY THE TAIL
單鞭下勢
[51] SINGLE WHIP, LOW POSTURE
上步七星
[52] STEP FORWARD WITH THE BIG DIPPER
下步跨虎
[53] RETREAT TO SITTING TIGER POSTURE
轉身擺蓮
[54] TURN AROUND, SWINGING LOTUS KICK
彎弓射雁
[55] BEND THE BOW TO SHOOT THE TIGER
上步搬攔錘
[56] STEP FORWARD, PARRY, BLOCK, PUNCH
播箕式
[57] WINNOWING BASKET POSTURE
十字手
[58] CROSSED HANDS
合太極
[59] CLOSING POSTURE
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