So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

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So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Sat May 18, 2019 8:25 pm

So why does the present day Chen Pao Chui set look nothing much like any Pao Quan and Pao Chui style from Henan?
The Chen Yi Lu set for sure is totally in common with Shaolin Hong Quan, Tai Tzu Quan, Rou Quan, Tong Bei, and other styles and can be matched up sequence by sequence.
But not the Chen Pao Chui set. It looks nothing like any Shaolin Pao Quan set, nothing like San Huang Pao Quan (except for a couple generic moves), and nothing like Tong Bei Pao Quan (which is technically should, since the Chen claim is that their stuff comes from Tong Bei originally).

And, supposedly the Pao Chui set(s) were lost long before Yang Lu Chan went to Chen village. There is no Pao Chui in Yang style, which is strange, since they have Large frame and Small Frame.

But, and I have seen rumors of this on some Chinese sites, that the Postural movements of the Chen Pao Chui set does in fact match up very well with Beijing Baji Quan, which was practiced by the very same Imperial Guards who were learning Tai Ji Quan. That it was retrofitted after Yang Taiji Quan was already being taught in Beijing. They were saying that even the stepping patterns are like Baji Spear stepping patterns, not like Chen's Yi Lu set, which is like Sword stepping.

this typical Shaolin Pao Quan:

San Huang Pao Chui (whch is from Emei anyways, too far from Chen village):


72 Pao Quan practiced near the temple where the original Chen ancestors started their research into their art:


Chen Pao Chui Er Lu set:


These are Baji Quan sets, especially look at the 3rd set:
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Sat May 18, 2019 8:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Trick on Sat May 18, 2019 9:28 pm

somewhere back in history and up till today some people has understood that practice cannon-fist forms do not nessecarily let the practitioner able to throw successful cannon fists in a real fight, and by so the cannon fist forms where dropped ? cannon-fist forms makes the practitioner/martial art seem strong to onlookers, and in some case make the practitioner feel seemingly strong therefore where the cannon fist forms reintroduced(or kept) ?
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bao on Sun May 19, 2019 2:13 am

Wu (Yuxiang) Tai Chi Pao Chui:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9-UM6TS2Bs

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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby charles on Sun May 19, 2019 7:04 am

Have you ever formally studied and practiced Chen style Taijiquan? If so, with whom and for how long?

I ask because your statements seem like those of someone academically contrasting and comparing some foreign cultural phenomenon they've never actually experienced. Without having actually studied and practiced the art, there doesn't seem like much basis for meaningful discussion.

My apologies if this seems overly blunt.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Sun May 19, 2019 7:31 am

charles wrote:Have you ever formally studied and practiced Chen style Taijiquan? If so, with whom and for how long?

I ask because your statements seem like those of someone academically contrasting and comparing some foreign cultural phenomenon they've never actually experienced. Without having actually studied and practiced the art, there doesn't seem like much basis for meaningful discussion.

My apologies if this seems overly blunt.


Yes, I have formally studied Chen Yi Lu and Er Lu with BP Chan's student Warner Ollie.
I studied Yang with various teachers.

Before I wrote my book, I spent time in NYC and traveling learning all the styles I was writing about so i could understand the body mechanics involved.

I started Shaolin in 1980 and then internal martial arts and qigong from there. So that's close to 40 years.
I even studied Baji Quan with more than 1 teacher.

Anyways, the point was that people in China have been saying this lately when they were looking at the postural movements of the Chen Er Lu and Baji and that they shared a lot more in common together than with any Pao Quan from any other styles.
I was just looking into what they were saying. This was said after my book was written, so I never researched this back then, my book come out in 2014.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Sun May 19, 2019 7:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Sun May 19, 2019 7:36 am

Bao wrote:Wu (Yuxiang) Tai Chi Pao Chui:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9-UM6TS2Bs



Yeah, i know, but people say this wasn't public until the other forms that are well know were public.
So, we don't know what year they are really from. It would hope they are indeed old.

But even more so, look at all the postural movements, its all small frame for one, and its nothing like the modern day post Chen Fake / post Beijing influenced Er Lu set.
It is very differently done, nothing like Baji Quan at all. The pattern is the same pretty much, but the movements haven't been retrofitted.

Perhaps, in order to help the Imperial Guards understand the Er Lu set better it was retrofitted to Baji Quan?
It seems to work.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Sun May 19, 2019 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bao on Sun May 19, 2019 8:28 am

But even more so, look at all the postural movements, its all small frame for one, and its nothing like the modern day post Chen Fake / post Beijing influenced Er Lu set.


Yang fast form is small frame. Wu/Hao is small frame and comes from Chen Xiaojia. https://youtu.be/JDuvobI5gyU
Maybe the original Chen Pao Chui also was small frame?
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby charles on Sun May 19, 2019 8:53 am

salcanzonieri wrote: I have formally studied Chen Yi Lu and Er Lu with BP Chan's student Warner Ollie.


Thanks for your response. During a non-exhaustive search, I was able to find almost no information on Warner Ollie, but for a Yang style video, and very little information on BP Chan, but that he seems to have studied with Tian, was good friends with Jou Tsunghwa and the Farm and latter taught at Willam Chen's school. I found a single video of him performing Yang style.

It doesn't really matter, I was just curious to see how they move.

since the Chen claim is that their stuff comes from Tong Bei originally...And, supposedly the Pao Chui set(s) were lost long before Yang Lu Chan went to Chen village.


I'm not a historical scholar, nor was I there when this stuff happened. However, it is probably an overstatement to say that "the Chen claim is that their stuff comes from Tong Bei originally". I believe the Chen claim is that Tong Bei was an influence, rather than it "comes from". This matters because your starting premise is that if Chen comes from Tong Bei, then the er lu form should be/look like Tong Bei. If the premise is wrong, so is the conclusion.

According to whom, the Pau Chui sets were lost long before YLC? Not according to the Chen family. No one knows for sure the historical sequence of events. People are free to conjecture and/or create whatever alternate version of history they like. Without historical records that prove one theory versus another, there is little point in arguing about any of it, unless one is interested in history for the sake of history. Regardless, it doesn't change where we are now or what people practice now.

But, and I have seen rumors of this on some Chinese sites, that the Postural movements of the Chen Pao Chui set does in fact match up very well with Beijing Baji Quan, which was practiced by the very same Imperial Guards who were learning Tai Ji Quan. That it was retrofitted after Yang Taiji Quan was already being taught in Beijing. They were saying that even the stepping patterns are like Baji Spear stepping patterns, not like Chen's Yi Lu set, which is like Sword stepping.


I'm at a loss as to how anyone who practices the art could arrive at those conclusions. There are so many obvious similarities between yi lu and er lu. There are also many similarities between Chen er lu and spear, saber, long pole and Kwan Dao. I don't know when each of these was introduced to the Chen curriculum, who created them or what influenced them, but there is an enormous amount of overlap between them.


Let's go with the wildest of conspiracy theories: ALL, 100% of Chen Taijiquan was made up after Yang Chen Fu popularized Yang style Taijiquan in Beijing. The Chen's created forms based on what YCF did, borrowed from other arts, such as Baji, Tong Bei, painting, Chinese opera and any others you care to include in the theory. Let's abandon any need for proof or logic, we'll just believe it's true 'cause we want it to be true. Does any of that change what people practice today or who has skills and who doesn't?

Other than as an attempt to undermine existing plausible versions of history, many of which are based on family histories - sure, families often have reasons to change or embellish their histories and aren't necessarily entirely accurate - does it accomplish anything useful, given that relatively little can be concretely proven or disproven? It seems to me like the undertaking of people with too much time on their hands and no place productive to spend it.
Last edited by charles on Sun May 19, 2019 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Sun May 19, 2019 9:17 am

Something to note, the material for the Chen forms were created during medieval times. So then, weapons were important for self defense, mainly the sword and the spear.

I found this English site https://ancienttaichi.com that seems to have translated the Chinese (careful - some of the links on this site seem have been hacked ):

"The Lao Jia 74 is characterized by the “Horizontal Crab Walk”, the form practice generally ebbs and flows Sideways instead of linear. The sidestepping pattern is the foundation for armored knights in Sword and Shield melee. Linear strikes are well protected by the opponent’s shield, neutralizing the Chen Tai Chi man’s sword thrust. Therefore Lao Jia adapted “horizontal crab walking” with the Sword/Shield strategy, extremely crucial in the medieval era."
They are saying that "Chen Yu’s great-grandfather (Chen Yanxi) was Chen aijiquan instructor for six years with the Beiyang Commander- Yuan Shikai. BEIJING GONGFU JIA Taijiquan and Bajiquan share the same approach from the Qing and trace back to the same Qi Jiguang manual. They both contain the “unarmed” boxing methods of Qi Jiguang treatise, instead of pure sword and shield (Lao Jia 74)." and "The feudal Chen System nearly went extinct in the village by the mid-1900s. Chen Yanxi, Chen Fake’s father in fact instructed Chen Taijiquan (labeled feudal Chen Longfist/ Cannonfist) for six years at the household of Qing Commander of the Beiyang New Army (and founder of the modern Chinese police force)- Yuan Shikai. "

"Chen Fake’s system is unique due to its integration of BAJIQUAN elements popular among armed escorts of the late Qing and Republic of China era. Both medieval Chen Taijiquan and Bajiquan descend from late Ming Era, Qi Jiguang treatise. The feudal Chen Taijiquan is Shaolin military- the empty-hand methods of feudal Bajiquan are very much a part of Beijing Gongfu Jia Taiji. The system became more prominent in the Beijing tradition through Chen Fake’s son, Chen Zhaokui (18th Generation), and then through Chen Zhaokui’s son, Chen Yu (19th Generation). "

There is stuff about how both Baji and Chen Pao Chui uses Spear movements in the wrist and arms and in stepping and the postures and postural movements are mostly the same because of this, so when the Chen's came to Beijing and worked with the Baji practitioners they were able to incorporate Baji into the Pao Chui for them and hence today Chen Pao Chui is different than what it originally was like before (which the Wu Hao Pao Chui set clearly shows).

Supposedly, Liu Yun Jiao (Baji Master) and Chen Fake met in 1925 and compared how the Chen Pao Chui and Baji were similar and agreed on their overlap.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Sun May 19, 2019 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Sun May 19, 2019 9:28 am

charles wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote: I have formally studied Chen Yi Lu and Er Lu with BP Chan's student Warner Ollie.




since the Chen claim is that their stuff comes from Tong Bei originally...And, supposedly the Pao Chui set(s) were lost long before Yang Lu Chan went to Chen village.


I'm not a historical scholar, nor was I there when this stuff happened. However, it is probably an overstatement to say that "the Chen claim is that their stuff comes from Tong Bei originally". I believe the Chen claim is that Tong Bei was an influence, rather than it "comes from". This matters because your starting premise is that if Chen comes from Tong Bei, then the er lu form should be/look like Tong Bei. If the premise is wrong, so is the conclusion.

According to whom, the Pau Chui sets were lost long before YLC? Not according to the Chen family. No one knows for sure the historical sequence of events. People are free to conjecture and/or create whatever alternate version of history they like. Without historical records that prove one theory versus another, there is little point in arguing about any of it, unless one is interested in history for the sake of history. Regardless, it doesn't change where we are now or what people practice now.

But, and I have seen rumors of this on some Chinese sites, that the Postural movements of the Chen Pao Chui set does in fact match up very well with Beijing Baji Quan, which was practiced by the very same Imperial Guards who were learning Tai Ji Quan. That it was retrofitted after Yang Taiji Quan was already being taught in Beijing. They were saying that even the stepping patterns are like Baji Spear stepping patterns, not like Chen's Yi Lu set, which is like Sword stepping.


I'm at a loss as to how anyone who practices the art could arrive at those conclusions. There are so many obvious similarities between yi lu and er lu. There are also many similarities between Chen er lu and spear, saber, long pole and Kwan Dao. I don't know when each of these was introduced to the Chen curriculum, who created them or what influenced them, but there is an enormous amount of overlap between them.


Let's go with the wildest of conspiracy theories: ALL, 100% of Chen Taijiquan was made up after Yang Chen Fu popularized Yang style Taijiquan in Beijing. The Chen's created forms based on what YCF did, borrowed from other arts, such as Baji, Tong Bei, painting, Chinese opera and any others you care to include in the theory. Let's abandon any need for proof or logic, we'll just believe it's true 'cause we want it to be true. Does any of that change what people practice today or who has skills and who doesn't?

Other than as an attempt to undermine existing plausible versions of history, many of which are based on family histories - sure, families often have reasons to change or embellish their histories and aren't necessarily entirely accurate - does it accomplish anything useful, given that relatively little can be concretely proven or disproven? It seems to me like the undertaking of people with too much time on their hands and no place productive to spend it.


Well, back in 2010 there was a ton of posts here from people with the latest research showing that was found in China showing where the material originally came from, its long concluded that Chen material originally came from Tong Bei, for a lot of reasons, including Chen Xin's book, read the old posts.

And, don't shoot the messenger, I am not saying that I believe it, just starting conversation. It is interesting to note that there is a lot in common with Baji Quan, and once I actually looked for myself, I do see it. I see the postures and the movements, since I had practiced both styles back in the 90s into the 2000s (now I just do Shaolin Rou Quan and Chen and Yang TJQ pretty much). I can find what I see in the Chen Pao Chui in the Baji set, but not in any Shaolin Pao Quan sets I ever learned. Didn't realize that until I saw what some people were saying online. It was food for thought. How the similarity between the two got there could be ancient for all we know.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bao on Sun May 19, 2019 10:49 am

its long concluded that Chen material originally came from Tong Bei, for a lot of reasons, including Chen Xin's book,


Don't remember what Chen Xin's book has to do with this, but Tongbei does not have the most clear history...
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby charles on Sun May 19, 2019 11:04 am

salcanzonieri wrote:And, don't shoot the messenger, I am not saying that I believe it, just starting conversation.


Sure, but it seems like most of your conversations have as their underlying theme that Chen Taijiquan isn't what established beliefs say it is.

I don't really care much about its historical roots but can appreciate that others might. I'd expect, however, that people investigating historical roots would do so with a certain amount of academic rigour. Conjecture and revisionism about things that can't be proven one way or the other often tends to be done by people trying to push a particular agenda. Your conversations seem to point towards a specific interest or agenda.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby HotSoup on Sun May 19, 2019 12:19 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:There is stuff about how both Baji and Chen Pao Chui uses Spear movements in the wrist and arms and in stepping and the postures and postural movements are mostly the same because of this.


Well, which of the Northern styles are not initially based off of the spear fighting? :)

On the subject, though, which exact movements (names) do you find mostly the same?
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bhassler on Sun May 19, 2019 5:02 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:Something to note, the material for the Chen forms were created during medieval times. So then, weapons were important for self defense, mainly the sword and the spear.

I found this English site https://ancienttaichi.com that seems to have translated the Chinese (careful - some of the links on this site seem have been hacked ):

"The Lao Jia 74 is characterized by the “Horizontal Crab Walk”, the form practice generally ebbs and flows Sideways instead of linear. The sidestepping pattern is the foundation for armored knights in Sword and Shield melee. Linear strikes are well protected by the opponent’s shield, neutralizing the Chen Tai Chi man’s sword thrust. Therefore Lao Jia adapted “horizontal crab walking” with the Sword/Shield strategy, extremely crucial in the medieval era."
They are saying that "Chen Yu’s great-grandfather (Chen Yanxi) was Chen aijiquan instructor for six years with the Beiyang Commander- Yuan Shikai. BEIJING GONGFU JIA Taijiquan and Bajiquan share the same approach from the Qing and trace back to the same Qi Jiguang manual. They both contain the “unarmed” boxing methods of Qi Jiguang treatise, instead of pure sword and shield (Lao Jia 74)." and "The feudal Chen System nearly went extinct in the village by the mid-1900s. Chen Yanxi, Chen Fake’s father in fact instructed Chen Taijiquan (labeled feudal Chen Longfist/ Cannonfist) for six years at the household of Qing Commander of the Beiyang New Army (and founder of the modern Chinese police force)- Yuan Shikai. "

"Chen Fake’s system is unique due to its integration of BAJIQUAN elements popular among armed escorts of the late Qing and Republic of China era. Both medieval Chen Taijiquan and Bajiquan descend from late Ming Era, Qi Jiguang treatise. The feudal Chen Taijiquan is Shaolin military- the empty-hand methods of feudal Bajiquan are very much a part of Beijing Gongfu Jia Taiji. The system became more prominent in the Beijing tradition through Chen Fake’s son, Chen Zhaokui (18th Generation), and then through Chen Zhaokui’s son, Chen Yu (19th Generation). "

There is stuff about how both Baji and Chen Pao Chui uses Spear movements in the wrist and arms and in stepping and the postures and postural movements are mostly the same because of this, so when the Chen's came to Beijing and worked with the Baji practitioners they were able to incorporate Baji into the Pao Chui for them and hence today Chen Pao Chui is different than what it originally was like before (which the Wu Hao Pao Chui set clearly shows).

Supposedly, Liu Yun Jiao (Baji Master) and Chen Fake met in 1925 and compared how the Chen Pao Chui and Baji were similar and agreed on their overlap.


What makes you think anything about that site is credible, from either an academic or practical standpoint?
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bob on Mon May 20, 2019 8:47 am

The assertion of the relationship between Chen Fake's Pao Chui and Bajiquan is a very strong assertion, without documentation, which Liu Yunqiao never made nor so inferred.

Liu's observation, in his meeting with Chen Fake, was that the stomping caught his attention and the fajin expression was similar. There may be some overlap in training methods and perhaps the group represented by the website may have integrated baji training with their version of pao chui but Liu had his disciples learn their yi lu and er lu (pao chui) Chen taijiquan, from Du Yu Zi and may have refined it regarding fajin expression in the movements - there are no direct baji postures in the 3 levels of Liu's abstraction of Chen style taijquan - these abstractions are different from Du Yu Zi's short form that Adam Hsu teaches.

In my conversations with Marin, Moling, he made it perfectly clear to me that Chen Yu's Chen taijiquan and the baji from Liu Yunqiao were lowly correlated with each other, if that, and really not that related in terms of structure. Bajiquan stores and releases energy differently than Chen style taijiquan and so many of the jiben gong training and internal work differs, although both systems, at least the Liu Yunqiao lineage, employs heng haa breathing in its fajin expression.

http://molingtaiji.com/

http://molingtaiji.com/lineage/chen-shi ... orm-names/

https://ancienttaichi.com/history/

". . . Chen Fake’s system is unique due to its integration of BAJIQUAN elements popular among armed escorts of the late Qing and Republic of China era. Both medieval Chen Taijiquan and Bajiquan descend from late Ming Era, Qi Jiguang treatise. The feudal Chen Taijiquan is Shaolin military- the empty-hand methods of feudal Bajiquan are very much a part of Beijing Gongfu Jia Taiji. The system became more prominent in the Beijing tradition through Chen Fake’s son, Chen Zhaokui (18th Generation), and then through Chen Zhaokui’s son, Chen Yu (19th Generation). The Beijing-style Chen Taijiquan is unique in its form and function, in relation to other lines of Chen Tai Chi Chuan. The system retains more of the ancient military art, with practicality for urban environments in non-sport settings. The biomechanics are much more nuanced and methodical."
Last edited by Bob on Mon May 20, 2019 10:20 am, edited 4 times in total.
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