charles wrote:Have you ever formally studied and practiced Chen style Taijiquan? If so, with whom and for how long?
I ask because your statements seem like those of someone academically contrasting and comparing some foreign cultural phenomenon they've never actually experienced. Without having actually studied and practiced the art, there doesn't seem like much basis for meaningful discussion.
My apologies if this seems overly blunt.
But even more so, look at all the postural movements, its all small frame for one, and its nothing like the modern day post Chen Fake / post Beijing influenced Er Lu set.
salcanzonieri wrote: I have formally studied Chen Yi Lu and Er Lu with BP Chan's student Warner Ollie.
since the Chen claim is that their stuff comes from Tong Bei originally...And, supposedly the Pao Chui set(s) were lost long before Yang Lu Chan went to Chen village.
But, and I have seen rumors of this on some Chinese sites, that the Postural movements of the Chen Pao Chui set does in fact match up very well with Beijing Baji Quan, which was practiced by the very same Imperial Guards who were learning Tai Ji Quan. That it was retrofitted after Yang Taiji Quan was already being taught in Beijing. They were saying that even the stepping patterns are like Baji Spear stepping patterns, not like Chen's Yi Lu set, which is like Sword stepping.
charles wrote:salcanzonieri wrote: I have formally studied Chen Yi Lu and Er Lu with BP Chan's student Warner Ollie.since the Chen claim is that their stuff comes from Tong Bei originally...And, supposedly the Pao Chui set(s) were lost long before Yang Lu Chan went to Chen village.
I'm not a historical scholar, nor was I there when this stuff happened. However, it is probably an overstatement to say that "the Chen claim is that their stuff comes from Tong Bei originally". I believe the Chen claim is that Tong Bei was an influence, rather than it "comes from". This matters because your starting premise is that if Chen comes from Tong Bei, then the er lu form should be/look like Tong Bei. If the premise is wrong, so is the conclusion.
According to whom, the Pau Chui sets were lost long before YLC? Not according to the Chen family. No one knows for sure the historical sequence of events. People are free to conjecture and/or create whatever alternate version of history they like. Without historical records that prove one theory versus another, there is little point in arguing about any of it, unless one is interested in history for the sake of history. Regardless, it doesn't change where we are now or what people practice now.But, and I have seen rumors of this on some Chinese sites, that the Postural movements of the Chen Pao Chui set does in fact match up very well with Beijing Baji Quan, which was practiced by the very same Imperial Guards who were learning Tai Ji Quan. That it was retrofitted after Yang Taiji Quan was already being taught in Beijing. They were saying that even the stepping patterns are like Baji Spear stepping patterns, not like Chen's Yi Lu set, which is like Sword stepping.
I'm at a loss as to how anyone who practices the art could arrive at those conclusions. There are so many obvious similarities between yi lu and er lu. There are also many similarities between Chen er lu and spear, saber, long pole and Kwan Dao. I don't know when each of these was introduced to the Chen curriculum, who created them or what influenced them, but there is an enormous amount of overlap between them.
Let's go with the wildest of conspiracy theories: ALL, 100% of Chen Taijiquan was made up after Yang Chen Fu popularized Yang style Taijiquan in Beijing. The Chen's created forms based on what YCF did, borrowed from other arts, such as Baji, Tong Bei, painting, Chinese opera and any others you care to include in the theory. Let's abandon any need for proof or logic, we'll just believe it's true 'cause we want it to be true. Does any of that change what people practice today or who has skills and who doesn't?
Other than as an attempt to undermine existing plausible versions of history, many of which are based on family histories - sure, families often have reasons to change or embellish their histories and aren't necessarily entirely accurate - does it accomplish anything useful, given that relatively little can be concretely proven or disproven? It seems to me like the undertaking of people with too much time on their hands and no place productive to spend it.
its long concluded that Chen material originally came from Tong Bei, for a lot of reasons, including Chen Xin's book,
salcanzonieri wrote:And, don't shoot the messenger, I am not saying that I believe it, just starting conversation.
salcanzonieri wrote:There is stuff about how both Baji and Chen Pao Chui uses Spear movements in the wrist and arms and in stepping and the postures and postural movements are mostly the same because of this.
salcanzonieri wrote:Something to note, the material for the Chen forms were created during medieval times. So then, weapons were important for self defense, mainly the sword and the spear.
I found this English site https://ancienttaichi.com that seems to have translated the Chinese (careful - some of the links on this site seem have been hacked ):
"The Lao Jia 74 is characterized by the “Horizontal Crab Walk”, the form practice generally ebbs and flows Sideways instead of linear. The sidestepping pattern is the foundation for armored knights in Sword and Shield melee. Linear strikes are well protected by the opponent’s shield, neutralizing the Chen Tai Chi man’s sword thrust. Therefore Lao Jia adapted “horizontal crab walking” with the Sword/Shield strategy, extremely crucial in the medieval era."
They are saying that "Chen Yu’s great-grandfather (Chen Yanxi) was Chen aijiquan instructor for six years with the Beiyang Commander- Yuan Shikai. BEIJING GONGFU JIA Taijiquan and Bajiquan share the same approach from the Qing and trace back to the same Qi Jiguang manual. They both contain the “unarmed” boxing methods of Qi Jiguang treatise, instead of pure sword and shield (Lao Jia 74)." and "The feudal Chen System nearly went extinct in the village by the mid-1900s. Chen Yanxi, Chen Fake’s father in fact instructed Chen Taijiquan (labeled feudal Chen Longfist/ Cannonfist) for six years at the household of Qing Commander of the Beiyang New Army (and founder of the modern Chinese police force)- Yuan Shikai. "
"Chen Fake’s system is unique due to its integration of BAJIQUAN elements popular among armed escorts of the late Qing and Republic of China era. Both medieval Chen Taijiquan and Bajiquan descend from late Ming Era, Qi Jiguang treatise. The feudal Chen Taijiquan is Shaolin military- the empty-hand methods of feudal Bajiquan are very much a part of Beijing Gongfu Jia Taiji. The system became more prominent in the Beijing tradition through Chen Fake’s son, Chen Zhaokui (18th Generation), and then through Chen Zhaokui’s son, Chen Yu (19th Generation). "
There is stuff about how both Baji and Chen Pao Chui uses Spear movements in the wrist and arms and in stepping and the postures and postural movements are mostly the same because of this, so when the Chen's came to Beijing and worked with the Baji practitioners they were able to incorporate Baji into the Pao Chui for them and hence today Chen Pao Chui is different than what it originally was like before (which the Wu Hao Pao Chui set clearly shows).
Supposedly, Liu Yun Jiao (Baji Master) and Chen Fake met in 1925 and compared how the Chen Pao Chui and Baji were similar and agreed on their overlap.
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