So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby everything on Tue May 21, 2019 12:07 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:
Since the Yang long form comes from the Chen Yi Lu, which comes from the Shaolin based material (as many researchers have proofed over and over), the form can be done with a staff or a broom stick easily, just like any Shaolin based form can be done.

Break the staff /broom stick in half and you have 2 'swords', which you can do the yang long form with as well (like any Shaolin form too).


Ha I like this idea a lot. Xingyiquan 5 elements makes so much intuitive sense this way (instead of breaking the staff, I just picked up a fork and knife or tv remote), but I never tried it with any taiji form. Hmm.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby wayne hansen on Tue May 21, 2019 12:15 pm

There may be no form called cannon fist in Yang
Cannon fist works on the 4 supplementary skills
Elbow ,split and enclose,shoulder and shake down
Those who know the secrets of San shou solo forms( not to be confused with the two man set) know how to use it
Further the two man pole form ( not to be confused with pole shaking)shows how to apply the energy
It is all there in yang even though most don't enter the gate
I believe in a modified and more advanced level than Chen but that is just my belief
I expect all Chen followers to think the opposite
Last edited by wayne hansen on Tue May 21, 2019 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby everything on Tue May 21, 2019 12:47 pm

Here's a really randomly chosen video:


is this one of the pao chui's y'all are talking about?
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue May 21, 2019 1:20 pm

everything wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote:
Since the Yang long form comes from the Chen Yi Lu, which comes from the Shaolin based material (as many researchers have proofed over and over), the form can be done with a staff or a broom stick easily, just like any Shaolin based form can be done.

Break the staff /broom stick in half and you have 2 'swords', which you can do the yang long form with as well (like any Shaolin form too).


Ha I like this idea a lot. Xingyiquan 5 elements makes so much intuitive sense this way (instead of breaking the staff, I just picked up a fork and knife or tv remote), but I never tried it with any taiji form. Hmm.


The staff works really well with the Yang Long Form, even the Chen Yi Lu (and the sword works).

Chen Pao Chui does seem to work well with the spear in hand, as does Baji, rather than the Staff or Sword.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue May 21, 2019 1:25 pm

wayne hansen wrote:There may be no form called cannon fist in Yang
Cannon fist works on the 4 supplementary skills
Elbow ,split and enclose,shoulder and shake down
Those who know the secrets of San shou solo forms( not to be confused with the two man set) know how to use it
Further the two man pole form ( not to be confused with pole shaking)shows how to apply the energy
It is all there in yang even though most don't enter the gate
I believe in a modified and more advanced level than Chen but that is just my belief
I expect all Chen followers to think the opposite


The Shaolin Louhan 13 Postures Qigong set that is one of the roots to the Chen and Yang long forms has the 13 postures and energies:
Peng, Ji, Lu, and An
and it has
Split, Tear, Shoulder, Elbow
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue May 21, 2019 1:44 pm

everything wrote:Here's a really randomly chosen video:


is this one of the pao chui's y'all are talking about?


No, that's a Chen Pao Chui 8 energies qigong set for training.
That's a nice little set.
I should use it for the old people I teach Shaolin Qigong to who also do Yang TJQ.
This set make a nice compliment to it.



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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby charles on Tue May 21, 2019 2:52 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:No, that's a Chen Pao Chui 8 energies qigong set for training.


In that video, there are eight exercises shown. Each is a single posture out of Chen forms that is being practiced in isolation, on one side, then the other, with a transition between the two. Nearly any posture from a form - Chen or otherwise - can be practiced this way. (Feng includes a bunch of these in his curriculum, as well as similar "walking drills" specifically for identifying/training the 8 energies.) What is shown in the video has nothing, specifically, to do with qigong or 8 energies: they are just movements from the forms being practiced on their own. I often practice what is shown in the video - taking a single move from a form and performing on one side, then the other, with a transition, one side, the other side, one side ... One can practice anywhere from slow, relaxed movement and stepping - similar to what is shown in the video - to fast, full-on jumping, stomping and fa jin in each repetition.

Three of the movements shown, 3, 6 and 8 are common to both Yi Lu and Er Lu forms. The other five shown are found in Er Lu but not Yi Lu. This is one illustration that the idea that there is no similarity or overlap between Yi Lu and Er Lu forms is incorrect.
Last edited by charles on Tue May 21, 2019 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bhassler on Tue May 21, 2019 3:44 pm

wayne hansen wrote:There may be no form called cannon fist in Yang
Cannon fist works on the 4 supplementary skills
Elbow ,split and enclose,shoulder and shake down
Those who know the secrets of San shou solo forms( not to be confused with the two man set) know how to use it
Further the two man pole form ( not to be confused with pole shaking)shows how to apply the energy
It is all there in yang even though most don't enter the gate
I believe in a modified and more advanced level than Chen but that is just my belief
I expect all Chen followers to think the opposite


74 movements in the Chen Yi Lu, of which 28 are repeats. 41 movements in Er Lu, of which maybe 20 are not in Yi Lu. So that's maybe 70 moves, total. How long is the typical Yang form? 108? Seems like plenty of room to combine both.

As far as things that are "just discussions", I can think of at least 3 instances on RSF where ideas presented in these speculative discussions have suddenly appeared in books or academic articles presented as "facts", and all of a sudden there are people all over the internets who think that just because something is published it must be true. Then the nonsense keeps coming up over and over again, forever. Nothing new there, but it does get tiresome...
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue May 21, 2019 4:29 pm

wayne hansen wrote:There may be no form called cannon fist in Yang
Cannon fist works on the 4 supplementary skills
Elbow ,split and enclose,shoulder and shake down
Those who know the secrets of San shou solo forms( not to be confused with the two man set) know how to use it
Further the two man pole form ( not to be confused with pole shaking)shows how to apply the energy
It is all there in yang even though most don't enter the gate
I believe in a modified and more advanced level than Chen but that is just my belief
I expect all Chen followers to think the opposite


Yang used to have 13 Pao Chaui, but it was a learning set, not a form. It was exercises on the left and right.
I have seen it in the Yang Ban Hou lineage, its just swings, its on Youtube.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue May 21, 2019 4:38 pm

charles wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote:No, that's a Chen Pao Chui 8 energies qigong set for training.


In that video, there are eight exercises shown. Each is a single posture out of Chen forms that is being practiced in isolation, on one side, then the other, with a transition between the two. Nearly any posture from a form - Chen or otherwise - can be practiced this way. (Feng includes a bunch of these in his curriculum, as well as similar "walking drills" specifically for identifying/training the 8 energies.) What is shown in the video has nothing, specifically, to do with qigong or 8 energies: they are just movements from the forms being practiced on their own. I often practice what is shown in the video - taking a single move from a form and performing on one side, then the other, with a transition, one side, the other side, one side ... One can practice anywhere from slow, relaxed movement and stepping - similar to what is shown in the video - to fast, full-on jumping, stomping and fa jin in each repetition.

Three of the movements shown, 3, 6 and 8 are common to both Yi Lu and Er Lu forms. The other five shown are found in Er Lu but not Yi Lu. This is one illustration that the idea that there is no similarity or overlap between Yi Lu and Er Lu forms is incorrect.


Sorry, I see sets like that as Qigong sets, which with breathing included they can be done that way, which is my Shaolin training showing, I guess.
And of course there is overlap between the Yi and Er lu sets, which is the postures that are in common with both sets.
Which are what? the set of moves for the intro, many repeats of the covered punches, a couple other obvious postures and not much else.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue May 21, 2019 4:44 pm

Bhassler wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:There may be no form called cannon fist in Yang
Cannon fist works on the 4 supplementary skills
Elbow ,split and enclose,shoulder and shake down
Those who know the secrets of San shou solo forms( not to be confused with the two man set) know how to use it
Further the two man pole form ( not to be confused with pole shaking)shows how to apply the energy
It is all there in yang even though most don't enter the gate
I believe in a modified and more advanced level than Chen but that is just my belief
I expect all Chen followers to think the opposite


74 movements in the Chen Yi Lu, of which 28 are repeats. 41 movements in Er Lu, of which maybe 20 are not in Yi Lu. So that's maybe 70 moves, total. How long is the typical Yang form? 108? Seems like plenty of room to combine both.

As far as things that are "just discussions", I can think of at least 3 instances on RSF where ideas presented in these speculative discussions have suddenly appeared in books or academic articles presented as "facts", and all of a sudden there are people all over the internets who think that just because something is published it must be true. Then the nonsense keeps coming up over and over again, forever. Nothing new there, but it does get tiresome...


The Yang Long form is just the Chen Yi Lu, its the same pattern and essentially the same form, it is really only 83 postures, not 108, that over counting each move. So, if take out the repeats, it is no longer than the Chen Yi Lu, (and the 5 postures not found in Chen are all found in the Taoist Hua Quan set). So, no the 20 postures unique to Chen Pao Chui are not found in the Yang long form at all.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Tue May 21, 2019 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue May 21, 2019 4:54 pm

Anyways, back to "conjecturing":

1. Quoting Peter Lim's research about Chen style ( not even looking at the research in my own book which only looked at the Chen Yi Lu set), shows that the Chen Pao Chui sets were lost by the time Yang Lu Chan was learning at Chen village.
If it ORIGINALLY was derived from Shaolin Pao Quan (which was part of Shaolin Hong Quan system, which was part of Taoist Dong's Tong Bei system that was taught to the early Chen family and Li family founders of the Chen style), it was lost by Yang's time.

According to Peter Lim's site:

The Chen Family Cannon Pounding Art (Pao Chui)

The Chen family assimilated all the arts they practiced and created their own version of the predominant art which they practiced, Cannnon Pounding (Pao Chui), derived from the original Shaolin Cannon Pounding art. Sung Tai Zhu Chang Chuan formed a major part of this new art and there were elements from Shaolin Red Fist in it.

What resulted is five routines of Chen family Pao Chui and one routine of `Short Hitting' (duan da) and the song formula stated a total of a 108 postures consisting the art. There is much confusion over this particular song formula but on closer examination the correct name should be 'Boxing Canon Complete Formula' and is only found in the later Liang Yi Tang Ben manual. By the time the Wen Xiu Tang Ben Chen family martial arts manual was written it was noted that the `second and third routines are lost'. The Wen Xiu Tang Ben makes no reference to an art called Taijiquan or '13 postures' or 13 anything for that matter. So it is an early reference to the state of the Chen family arts before the advent of the Taijiquan of the Chen family that we know today.

The Chen family was famous for the Cannon Pounding art for several generations and gained the beautiful name of `Cannon Pounding Chen Family' (Pao Chui Chen Jia) in the region around the Chen village.

The Simplification Of Chen Routines

Somewhere along the line the Chen Pao Chui art was simplified to just two routines. We have no evidence to indicated who was the one responsible for this simplification. The furthest that we can trace it back is to Chen Chang Xin, Yang Lu Chan's teacher. But even the Chen family genealogy book does not indicate that he was responsible for this momentous change, only indicating that he was a boxing teacher with a nickname `Ancestral Tablet'.

We know for certain that two of the routines were already lost by that time and so only the 3 remaining could account for the final two routines. Whether there was an integration or that another routine was lost through time resulting in the final two is not certain at all.


2. The 'final two" being the Chen Yi Lu and Er Lu sets.
So, the Pao Chui Er Lu has to be rebuilt.
And it certainly wasn't rebuilt from the Henan Shaolin Pao Quan sets that they have been practicing for hundreds of years. It's nothing at all like it. The Shaolin Pao Quan does not have Split, Tear, Shoulder, Elbow, at all (only their much older Louhan 13 Postures Qigong set has that). They don't match at all. The Chen Yi Lu sets very much match the Shaolin Hong Quan, Tai Zhu Chang Quan, and Rou Quan sets very closely. So why wouldn't the Chen Pao Chui set match the famous and hundreds of years old Shaolin Pao Quan sets?

Yang Lu Chan wasn't taught Chen Pao Chui by Chen Chang Xing (1771–1853) because it wasn't there.

3. If anything, the Pao Chui Er Lu set may have been created by Chen Chang Xing's contemporary, Chen Youben (陳有本; 1780~1858), also of the 14th Chen generation,
But from what?
And the small frame went to Zhao Bao village,through Chen Qingping (陳清平 1795–1868) WHICH HAS NO PAO CHUI SET.
(So, how does Li Yiyu, who was the nephew and successor of Wu Yuxiang creator of the Wu style, and Wu is said to have studied for ONLY a FEW MONTHS in Zhao Bao,
and thereafter taking 20 years Wu and Li to develop their Wu style - which a Small frame looking Pao Chui form is attributed on Youtube to LiYu, but what is the actual lineage? Is it authentic?) BUT Zhao Bao doesn't have Pao Chui, which means Chen Qingping didn't teach it?

4. AND NO ONE ever outside of Chen village, besides Yang Lu Chan, ever saw Chen TJQ until 1928,when Chen Zhaopei (1893–1972) and later his uncle, Chen Fake (1887–1957) moved from Chen village to teach in Beijing. And people saw that the Chen style was radically different from the Yang and Wu and Wu/Hao styles.

5. In Taiwan, Du's style of Chen TJQ is from Chen Yan Xi, Chen Fake's father, we have all seen it's Yi Lu set, but they have No Pao Chui?

6. Why did old timer Chen Qing Zhou whose teacher was Chen Zho-Pei learn Pao Chui from him and not from others in his village?
Why did the rest of the well known Chen TJQ people who studied Chen style in their village since youth later learn Pao Chui from Chen Zhao Pei, once he was sent back to the village to cultivate a group of stars?

See? Lots of questions of the Chen Pao Chui set that we see TODAY.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Tue May 21, 2019 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby edededed on Tue May 21, 2019 5:46 pm

My understanding was that different groups in the imperial city areas of Beijing practiced taijiquan, baguazhang, and yingzhaoquan (eagle claw). This was also prior to Chen Zhaopi and Chen Fake's teaching of Chen style taijiquan in Beijing (rather late, from 1928).

Bajiquan was practiced by Puyi's bodyguard Huo Diange - but that was in Manchuguo, not in Beijing. But if bajiquan was practiced as well, I would be interested to know.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bob on Tue May 21, 2019 6:38 pm

"In Taiwan, Du's style of Chen TJQ is from Chen Yan Xi, Chen Fake's father, we have all seen it's Yi Lu set, but they have No Pao Chui?"

That is not true - there is a youtube clip of Du demonstrating Pao chui on stage at a Rotary Club -in Taiwan -I can't access it now but it's there - Du's only Chen taiji teacher was Chen Yan Xi so it was in the Chen lines in the 1800s - Adam Hsu has the Pao chui dvd on the market which he learned from Du
Last edited by Bob on Tue May 21, 2019 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bob on Tue May 21, 2019 7:02 pm

Sorry not the Rotary Club - it's the Lion's Club in Taiwan - at the 20.01 mark, Du Yu Ze demonstrates Pao Chui - Although Du Yu Ze did learn Hu Lei Jia, his Chen's taiji, both yi lu and er lu came from Chen Yan Xi which puts it in the mid 1800s unless we speculate and say he learned it from the Hu Lei Jia master which is quite doubtful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNULkvRqCnM

Wu Tan Masters in Venezuela and Taiwan in the 70's

Shifu Su Yu Chang, Shifu Dai Shi Zhe and students in Venezuela in the 70's.
Ancient Wu Tan Masters: Liu Yun Qiao, Shan Dong Cheng, Du Yu Tze and their students Xu JI (Adam Hsu), Wu Song Fa, Fu Shun Nan and others in Taiwan in the 70's.

Last edited by Bob on Tue May 21, 2019 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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