So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue May 21, 2019 9:30 pm

Bob wrote:Sorry not the Rotary Club - it's the Lion's Club in Taiwan - at the 20.01 mark, Du Yu Ze demonstrates Pao Chui - Although Du Yu Ze did learn Hu Lei Jia, his Chen's taiji, both yi lu and er lu came from Chen Yan Xi which puts it in the mid 1800s unless we speculate and say he learned it from the Hu Lei Jia master which is quite doubtful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNULkvRqCnM

Wu Tan Masters in Venezuela and Taiwan in the 70's

Shifu Su Yu Chang, Shifu Dai Shi Zhe and students in Venezuela in the 70's.
Ancient Wu Tan Masters: Liu Yun Qiao, Shan Dong Cheng, Du Yu Tze and their students Xu JI (Adam Hsu), Wu Song Fa, Fu Shun Nan and others in Taiwan in the 70's.



Well, now that's good to see, that's at least getting somewhere.
So, then Chen Yan Xi had it, since it shows the same pattern of postures as the present day Pao Chui,
but man, that is like caveman Chen Pao Chui. The movements are executed very different from post Chen Zhao Pei version of the set.
Du's is still not at all like Shaolin Pao Quan in postures.
But you can see that Chen Zhao Pei and Chen Fake after coming back to Chen village brought a totally different flavor to the movements.
Du's version has many different moves and the sequences sometimes are in different order too, it is a lot longer with more postures.
Wish I could see a better video of this version of the set. (I wonder if Adam Hsu does this exact version just like this?, I so, I would buy the DVD).
The differences are remarkable, BUT STILL LIKE BAJI QUAN to me.

But now I think the connection to Baji might be from Shandong province, not Beijing. Because of Chen Yan Xi.

But Baji Quan originated in Shandong province, it is wide spread there contemporary with Chen Taiji times. Many times Chen family members were body guards and escorts there, such as:
12th generation, Chen Jing Bai;
15th generation, Chen Geng Yun, son of Chen Chang Xin (same time as Yang Lu Chan was there)
16th generation, Chen Yan Xi son of Chen Geng Yun, father of Chen Fake

Chen Yan Xi lived in Shandong for a number of years and 6 years in Tianjin, where Baji Quan was a major martial art in both areas.
Chen Yan Xi taught Chen martial arts in both areas, that's a fact.
If the generation before him didn't learn Chen Pao Chui because it was lost, perhaps he created what we now know as the ER LU pattern?
Especially since the only Pao Chui from Chen linage can be traced to his family line and students, such as Du Yu Tse.
And Baji Quan is known for its Splitting, Tearing, Shoulder, and Elbow techniques, and bursts of explosive movements.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Tue May 21, 2019 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bao on Tue May 21, 2019 11:35 pm

Baji Quan is known for its Splitting, Tearing, Shoulder, and Elbow techniques, and bursts of explosive movements.


Is your assumption based on that you believe they “look” similar? Many styles have a similar expression. And they don’t only influence each other one time in history.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Trick on Wed May 22, 2019 12:55 am

salcanzonieri wrote:No one said it is academic research.

It is just DISCUSSION because this is a discussion group.
Where people can speculate about anything, right?

It's just interesting. So what?

People think about things and have questions.
These are mine:

No one can find any similarity (postures, postural movements, sequences of movements) with any Pao Quan from anywhere in China with Chen Pao Chui, why is that?
No Pao Chui in Yang TJQ, why?
Why Baji Quan looks like it has postures, postural movements, sequences of movements much more like Chen Pao Chui than any Pao Quan styles, even those from Henan?

Those, I think, are something worth exploring about.

AND one of my Baji teachers was Charles Chen (RIP) and we discussed my book when I was writing it. AND he did say there was too much coincidence between the two styles for some reason. Why? Who knows?

In (shorin based)Karate styles there are a group of three short katas(forms) named Naihanchi/Tekki, they are supposedly based on one longer older exercise originated in China. Some “Researchers” has tied them to Baijiquan on just the fact that the mabu/kiba-dachi/ horse riding stance is frequently used and some elbow strikes and supposedly stomping are present..Well maybe there’s an connection......I personally see more of some of XYQ’s animal forms in those Katas, and even the arm/hand move/application that lead up to Chen-TJQ’s Buddha pound the mortar....it’s possible the Naihanchi katas share with Chen family boxing and XYQ a common Shaolin origin, maybe bajiquan fit in that group too....Yes it may be fun to speculate on these matters and chat about it..but If one is doing research for a new book or a paper one have to go deeper than just speculate and go by gut feeling
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Trick on Wed May 22, 2019 1:12 am

salcanzonieri wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:There may be no form called cannon fist in Yang
Cannon fist works on the 4 supplementary skills
Elbow ,split and enclose,shoulder and shake down
Those who know the secrets of San shou solo forms( not to be confused with the two man set) know how to use it
Further the two man pole form ( not to be confused with pole shaking)shows how to apply the energy
It is all there in yang even though most don't enter the gate
I believe in a modified and more advanced level than Chen but that is just my belief
I expect all Chen followers to think the opposite


Yang used to have 13 Pao Chaui, but it was a learning set, not a form. It was exercises on the left and right.
I have seen it in the Yang Ban Hou lineage, its just swings, its on Youtube.

“It’s on YouTube” 8-) i live in China, but I do not have the time and the researchers mind to do any historical research on the CMA, i just practice CMA as an hobbyist. I think if one are to do some serious work on this, staying in China traveling around doing research for quite some time would be optional
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bob on Wed May 22, 2019 5:10 am

But now I think the connection to Baji might be from Shandong province, not Beijing. Because of Chen Yan Xi.

But Baji Quan originated in Shandong province, it is wide spread there contemporary with Chen Taiji times. Many times Chen family members were body guards and escorts there, such as:
12th generation, Chen Jing Bai;
15th generation, Chen Geng Yun, son of Chen Chang Xin (same time as Yang Lu Chan was there)
16th generation, Chen Yan Xi son of Chen Geng Yun, father of Chen Fake

Chen Yan Xi lived in Shandong for a number of years and 6 years in Tianjin, where Baji Quan was a major martial art in both areas.
Chen Yan Xi taught Chen martial arts in both areas, that's a fact.
If the generation before him didn't learn Chen Pao Chui because it was lost, perhaps he created what we now know as the ER LU pattern?
Especially since the only Pao Chui from Chen linage can be traced to his family line and students, such as Du Yu Tse.
And Baji Quan is known for its Splitting, Tearing, Shoulder, and Elbow techniques, and bursts of explosive movements.


This has gotten far too speculative for me - You should reference Dr. James Guo for the origin of bajiquan - it is not the Shandong province

http://www.bajimen.org/index.php?page=baji

"Origins
BaJiQuan originates from the DongNan town of Cang county, HeiBei province, in the area of Meng village, about seventy to eighty li ( about 40 km ) from the city, traditionally called "The nest of BaJi". Actually, this area is the old home of PiGuaQuan as well, it's even more popular there than in the famous PiGua county LuoZhong. . . The descriptions for BaJiQuan's place of origin -- Meng village -- were few and had mistakes. The following are based on the Cang county records, combined with what was told by Grandmaster Liu."

My speculation - bajiquan, at least in the Liu Yunqiao line, is far closer to in training to Xing Yi Quan and the 5 elements

Liu Da Kai - the mother set of baji - major postural and executions wrapped in the wu xing framewaork, including some of its very basic stationary elemental posture training. Da qiang training similar - neigong exercises are very similar - but let me be perfectly clear, it is total speculation on my part.

Over the years, I have heard and exchanged with people who believe that the baji taught by Liu Yunqiao was not the "real" baji and that Liu put elements of bagua into his version - all speculation.

It has been a relatively interesting discussion but far too speculative for me - the goal posts keep moving LOL
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby everything on Wed May 22, 2019 8:19 am

It really just bolsters the argument that all MA are MMA.
There is no such thing as "pure".
Once someone learns any bit of anything else and finds it useful and incorporates it,
things change.

I don't really fully understand the obsession with these 'this came from that' unknowable histories.
I mean I kinda get it from a purely intellectual curiousity pov.
but yeah as far as any rigor, things don't seem so well known.
People make marketing claims that suit them.
Other people write histories based on what they heard.
It's interesting because ... to tie in another thread...
Tyrion makes the observation that stories are what bind people together.
Tyrion turns out to be the literal kingmaker, but he doesn't go in the history.
One suspects real history is a lot like that.
Certain stories seem more interesting, so they get told and twisted, and exaggerated.
The truth is lost. These arts are obsolete for many reasons (such as no one actually does battle with a ton of spears), but the stories keep getting told and mistold. We'll never know.

Unfortunately for many reasons, people don't actually do these arts (in the case of spearfighting, it doesn't even make applicable sense any more).
At the very dawn of taijiquan getting popularized, it seems like it was taught to officials (intellectuals not warriors), so there's that.
So someone makes up some shit about that ain't real, and my shit that came before is real. Except it isn't. If it were real and "alive" it would still be in use.

Still, some of us in obscure corners like here, will claim there is some good stuff, etc. but why did we get interested? It's as Tyrion says. Stories. Then we fall in love with stories and can't even see the actual thing. this isn't really the worst possible situation, though.
Last edited by everything on Wed May 22, 2019 8:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bhassler on Wed May 22, 2019 9:30 am

Here's a translation of an article from 1932 that mentions both the Thirteen Sections Long Boxing and Cannon Boxing. https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2017/08/31/taiji-boxing-according-to-chen-ziming/?fbclid=IwAR3jNTcv8suDe_Z-O43e4HvItNBaN70rKl80ePiihOhmbksRxvBHVCJIjoA So the idea that the second set was lost by the time of Yang Lu Chan and re-introduced by Chen Zhaopi doesn't seem to hold water.

Here's a link to an article about the state of Taiji in the Chen village during the Cultural Revolution and the context in which Chen Zhaopi and Chen Zhaokui were brought back to teach: http://molingtaiji.com/chen-taijiquan-survival-in-chen-village-through-the-difficult-years/?fbclid=IwAR2Z1bdZkMFiNN6m6KyznyCSFoTpcRbAB-3d0WPIG5EBJHN6NXPF3M5yFaU
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed May 22, 2019 10:30 am

Bob wrote:But now I think the connection to Baji might be from Shandong province, not Beijing. Because of Chen Yan Xi.

But Baji Quan originated in Shandong province, it is wide spread there contemporary with Chen Taiji times. Many times Chen family members were body guards and escorts there, such as:
12th generation, Chen Jing Bai;
15th generation, Chen Geng Yun, son of Chen Chang Xin (same time as Yang Lu Chan was there)
16th generation, Chen Yan Xi son of Chen Geng Yun, father of Chen Fake

Chen Yan Xi lived in Shandong for a number of years and 6 years in Tianjin, where Baji Quan was a major martial art in both areas.
Chen Yan Xi taught Chen martial arts in both areas, that's a fact.
If the generation before him didn't learn Chen Pao Chui because it was lost, perhaps he created what we now know as the ER LU pattern?
Especially since the only Pao Chui from Chen linage can be traced to his family line and students, such as Du Yu Tse.
And Baji Quan is known for its Splitting, Tearing, Shoulder, and Elbow techniques, and bursts of explosive movements.


This has gotten far too speculative for me - You should reference Dr. James Guo for the origin of bajiquan - it is not the Shandong province

http://www.bajimen.org/index.php?page=baji

"Origins
BaJiQuan originates from the DongNan town of Cang county, HeiBei province, in the area of Meng village, about seventy to eighty li ( about 40 km ) from the city, traditionally called "The nest of BaJi". Actually, this area is the old home of PiGuaQuan as well, it's even more popular there than in the famous PiGua county LuoZhong. . . The descriptions for BaJiQuan's place of origin -- Meng village -- were few and had mistakes. The following are based on the Cang county records, combined with what was told by Grandmaster Liu."

My speculation - bajiquan, at least in the Liu Yunqiao line, is far closer to in training to Xing Yi Quan and the 5 elements

Liu Da Kai - the mother set of baji - major postural and executions wrapped in the wu xing framewaork, including some of its very basic stationary elemental posture training. Da qiang training similar - neigong exercises are very similar - but let me be perfectly clear, it is total speculation on my part.

Over the years, I have heard and exchanged with people who believe that the baji taught by Liu Yunqiao was not the "real" baji and that Liu put elements of bagua into his version - all speculation.

It has been a relatively interesting discussion but far too speculative for me - the goal posts keep moving LOL


Yes, I know where Baji Quan originated, and by Chen Yan Xi's time, it was well spread out to Shandong and Tianjin, both places that he spent many years living and teaching. He was very respected in those areas, it would be strange for him not to interact with practitioners from other styles.

This site is the only place someone can have questions and can ask people what their learned opinion (or not learned, ha) is. And where people give insightful answers back.

For some reason the Chen Pao Chui we see today isn't matching up to what their old records say it comes from (Shaolin Pao Quan).
Having learned Baji, both mainland and Taiwan versions, I saw the postures in the Chen Pao Chui, I mean they are literally there (Chen Pao Chui has only 20 postures that are not in Yi Lu). I learned Shaolin Pao Quan in my younger years, none of these 20 postures are in any of the forms.
I thought it was a strange thing.
All the Yi Lu postures are found in various Shaolin sets of different types (Tong Bei, Hong Quan, Pao Quan, Rou Quan), why wouldn't that be true about these 20 Er Lu postures?

But the more "conjecturing" with people here, the more seeing that Chen Yan Xi might be the link (will I ever know for sure, no, but so what?).
Seems plausible to me. Chen Fake's Chen Pao Chui was something no one had ever seen before.
Yang family certainly didn't have it. I don't think the Pao Chui was available for his generation.
Because then Zhaobao would have it, but they don't.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed May 22, 2019 10:35 am

Bhassler wrote:Here's a translation of an article from 1932 that mentions both the Thirteen Sections Long Boxing and Cannon Boxing. https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2017/08/31/taiji-boxing-according-to-chen-ziming/?fbclid=IwAR3jNTcv8suDe_Z-O43e4HvItNBaN70rKl80ePiihOhmbksRxvBHVCJIjoA So the idea that the second set was lost by the time of Yang Lu Chan and re-introduced by Chen Zhaopi doesn't seem to hold water.

Here's a link to an article about the state of Taiji in the Chen village during the Cultural Revolution and the context in which Chen Zhaopi and Chen Zhaokui were brought back to teach: http://molingtaiji.com/chen-taijiquan-survival-in-chen-village-through-the-difficult-years/?fbclid=IwAR2Z1bdZkMFiNN6m6KyznyCSFoTpcRbAB-3d0WPIG5EBJHN6NXPF3M5yFaU


Yeah, that's fine, because now I see that Chan Yan Xi is an important person to consider, since he was active as a martial artist and teacher in areas were Baji was prolific.
I think that somehow Baji postures that fit into the Pao Chui were incorporated and that's the ONLY pao chui that exists today.
There are no other lineages outside of Chan Yan Xi's relatives and students that do Pao Chui, I think, yes?
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed May 22, 2019 10:42 am

No, the question is Small Frame lineage, what was left of it by Chen Yan Xi's time and Chen Fake's time?
Did this lineage have Pao Chui.
Supposedly, Yang Lu Chan did learn Small Frame as well.
So, still no Pao Chui in Yang style, and he did not teach any Pao Chui to his friend Wu from his hometown nor did Yang teach Pao Chui in his hometown before going to Beijing.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bob on Wed May 22, 2019 11:26 am

Chen Qingzhou has pao chui

I have always preferred his flavor, especially yi lu.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed May 22, 2019 2:46 pm

Bob wrote:Chen Qingzhou has pao chui

I have always preferred his flavor, especially yi lu.


Of course Chen QingZhou has Pao Chui, he got it from Chen Zhao Pei, since he is of the Lao Jia style of Chen.

By the way, my Chen style that I learned that comes from BP Chan, is from Chen QingZhou, Chen Zhao Pei Lao Jia.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed May 22, 2019 2:51 pm

Thanks to GrahamB for finding this
http://www.taipinginstitute.com/component/k2/item/58-taijiquan-evolution-6-taijiquan-returns-to-chen-village

The New Large Frame of Taijiquan returns to Chenjiagou

Today's what he could call mainstream Chen Style Tajiquan is derived mostly from the teachings of two key teachers that originated at Chenjiagou but resided elsewhere. These were Chen Fa'ke (1887-1957) who brought Chen Style Taijiquan to Beijing in 1928 and Chen Zhaopei (1893-1972) brought Chen Style Taijiquan to Nanjing in 1930 (originally was in Beijing then invited Chen Fa'ke to take over) and taught for over eight years.

In 1958, Chen Zhaopei whom resided in Zhengzhou at the time visited Chenjiagou for Chinese New Year. It was his first time back in decades. Chen Zhaopei whilst advanced in years (65) felt that it was a shame that there were no longer any practitioners in Chenjiagou. He was saddened that there were no successors in the birthplace of Taijiquan and no serious practitioners left in Chenjiagou. It was a difficult decision because at the time both his wife (second wife) and son (whom had a good job and family in Zhengzhou) were against him returning to Chenjiagou. He also had to retire from his work (Flood Control Committee) earlier foresaking an increase in his pension. Chen Zhaopei however against all odds felt a sense of responsibility and returned to the Chenjiagou during his retirement years. Unfortunately this was not going to be an easy quest for there were still a number of CCP initatives that impacted the ability to propagate and teach Taijiquan during those years. The Great Leap forward was distracting and in 1966-1976, The Cultural revolution saw the repression of traditional teachings including martial arts. Facilities were closed down and practitioners were prosecuted. Chen Zhaopei was said to have been persecuted by the red guards and even attempted suicide during those years. His legs were injured for almost two years and had to use a stool/walking assistance during the time. Much of the training had to be conducted in secret and many elements (eg weapons) a challenge to practice in confined space so mostly only the laojia yi lu was taught. After Chen Zhaopei's death, Chen Zhaokui (Chen Fa'ke's youngest son) continued teaching at Chenjiagou. The local secretary of the CCP for Wen County, Zhang Weizhen also invited Feng Zhiqiang to teach. Feng Zhiqiang visited three times for short intensive teaching sessions.

As a result the teachings at Chenjiagou were distinguished into the old (Chen Zhaopei's) and the new (Chen Zhaokui's) frame of practice. The Taijiquan practiced by the older generations would find a new home in Xi'an and become known as Chen Small Frame Taijiquan. Whilst the descendants of Chen Fa'ke would derive a number of different versions of Taijiquan practice (sometimes called Beijing Chen Style Taijiquan) including Li Jingwu, Lei Muni, Tian Xiuchen and Feng Zhiqiang amongst others.



So, as I had thought so, By 1958, Chen TJQ was pretty much not practiced in Chen Village, and so Chen Zhaopei had to struggle to teach at all and mostly could only teach the CHEN YI LU form.
So, what does that mean? Chen Fake's son had to bring not only the Chen Pao Chui set back to Chen village but also the New Frame (Xin Jia) style.
So what happened to Small Frame? it went to Xi'an. So, it's not even the same Small Frame, it's from one lineage only.
The only Chen that exists today all comes from Chen Yan Xi's descendants and students (Du, who went to Taiwan).

So, quite possibly the post Chen Zhaokui's Chen Pao Chui Er Lu is reconstructed? He could only have gotten it from Chen Fake.
Chen Fake could have taught it to some people in Beijing. But who?
You can see with your own eyes that in Taiwan Du's Pao Chui Er Lu set is very different (sequences out of order, many more movements, different postures, even though the basic pattern is the same).
Du's Yi Lu is kinda different too, but not drastically different, in my opinion. Some people think it is Yang like.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Wed May 22, 2019 7:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby wayne hansen on Wed May 22, 2019 3:28 pm

salcanzonieri wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:There may be no form called cannon fist in Yang
Cannon fist works on the 4 supplementary skills
Elbow ,split and enclose,shoulder and shake down
Those who know the secrets of San shou solo forms( not to be confused with the two man set) know how to use it
Further the two man pole form ( not to be confused with pole shaking)shows how to apply the energy
It is all there in yang even though most don't enter the gate
I believe in a modified and more advanced level than Chen but that is just my belief
I expect all Chen followers to think the opposite


Yang used to have 13 Pao Chaui, but it was a learning set, not a form. It was exercises on the left and right.
I have seen it in the Yang Ban Hou lineage, its just swings, its on Youtube.



Firstly the set you are talking about is what I was taught as yang noi gung
My teacher mr mak had learnt it directly from YCF
It is the same sequence but not done in the same manner
He also taught me the spear sets and auxiliary exercises
One of my Wu teachers also did the Yang Ban Hao form but I did not learn it
I think people have misunderstood what I mean by San shou being the yang version of pao chuan
I don't mean the movements are the same but the techniques and attitude are similar
I see it more like Hsing I and ba kua
I don't want to derail where you are going but just thought I should clarify
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed May 22, 2019 7:58 pm

By the way, I am not writing an article about this topic.
I have been teaching Chen and Yang to people in their mid 70s, after first teaching them the Shaolin Qigong and Tai Zhu Quan sets, as an experiment.
They learned YCF TJQ when they were in their 20s and forgot it.
SO, they found it so much easier to understand and learn the TJQ material and do the movements when I taught them in this order:
1 - Shaolin Chan Yun Gong Qigong
2 - Shaolin Louhan 13 Postures Rou Gong
3 - Shaolin Taizhu Chang Quan 32 postures set
4 - Chen Yi Lu
5 - Old Yang Form of Lin Du Ying (studied with Tian Xiao Lin, Yang Ban Hou lineage and Wu Hui Chuan, YCF lineage)
6 - Yang Chen Fu Long Form

(they don't like #6 any more, they prefer to do #5 all the time now)

I was re-viewing Chen Er Lu, and when I removed all the repeats and just looked at the 20 or so postural movements not in the Chen YI Lu,
I was swearing I was doing Baji postures from the various Baji sets I had learned years ago (which I had learned after I learned Chen TJQ).
I kept stopping and going back to a Baji set that had the same posture and finding groups of 3 moves in a sequence that were just like in the Er Lu.
Too many times, over and over.
I had the same feeling when I was first learning Chen Yi Lu and I kept saying i already know these postures, they are all in the Shaolin material I already learned before.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Wed May 22, 2019 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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