So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Wed May 22, 2019 8:51 pm

I found these "long lost" Chen sets attributed to Chen Zhao Kui on a Chinese site many years ago:

3rd Road, Duan Quan 24 Posture (which is indeed the name of a set that was originally part of the Chen curriculum):



4th Road, 108 postures set


Also this version of the 108 set
Wang Zhenhua says he learnt the form from Chen Zhaokui. Du Wencai, another disciple of CZK, published a book in early 1990s in which he presented Long Fist in 108 Postures and Short Fist in 48 Postures. He also claimed he learnt them from CZK. There are still people in Shanghai who practice these routines


Then there is the Small Frame style that went back to Hangdong, Shanxi (where the Chen clan is originally from) to find the Chen 108 practiced there:

Last edited by salcanzonieri on Wed May 22, 2019 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Pennykid on Wed May 22, 2019 9:10 pm

Sal, is that old Yang form of Lin Du Ying anywhere on the net? I've only ever seen Tian Zhaolin forms from the Yang Jian-hou lineage.
Well, there's also the small frame fast set but I suspect that is not what you're teaching your students -
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Franklin on Thu May 23, 2019 12:22 am

just saw this video today - and made me think of this thread

sanhuangpaochui
at about 4:05 in this video
what he is doing looks like chen style erlu


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8HPtiG3lIQ
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bob on Thu May 23, 2019 4:50 am

Which of the bajiquan forms fit your conceptualization of Pao Chui?
Jin Gang Ba Shi?
Xiao Baji Jia?
Da Baji?
Baji/Pigua combination?
Baji Lian Huan (linking form)?
Liu Da Kai?
Ba Da Zao?

Since you cite the late Charles Chen as one of your instructors, is your reference comparison the Li Shunwen/Liu Yunqiao lineage?s)
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby chenyaolong on Thu May 23, 2019 4:52 am

salcanzonieri wrote:
Yes, I know where Baji Quan originated, and by Chen Yan Xi's time, it was well spread out to Shandong and Tianjin, both places that he spent many years living and teaching. He was very respected in those areas, it would be strange for him not to interact with practitioners from other styles.

This site is the only place someone can have questions and can ask people what their learned opinion (or not learned, ha) is. And where people give insightful answers back.

For some reason the Chen Pao Chui we see today isn't matching up to what their old records say it comes from (Shaolin Pao Quan).
Having learned Baji, both mainland and Taiwan versions, I saw the postures in the Chen Pao Chui, I mean they are literally there (Chen Pao Chui has only 20 postures that are not in Yi Lu). I learned Shaolin Pao Quan in my younger years, none of these 20 postures are in any of the forms.
I thought it was a strange thing.
All the Yi Lu postures are found in various Shaolin sets of different types (Tong Bei, Hong Quan, Pao Quan, Rou Quan), why wouldn't that be true about these 20 Er Lu postures?

But the more "conjecturing" with people here, the more seeing that Chen Yan Xi might be the link (will I ever know for sure, no, but so what?).
Seems plausible to me. Chen Fake's Chen Pao Chui was something no one had ever seen before.
Yang family certainly didn't have it. I don't think the Pao Chui was available for his generation.
Because then Zhaobao would have it, but they don't.


Do you know how large Shandong province is? Even with modern transport it takes several hours to get from one city to another.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bhassler on Thu May 23, 2019 6:50 am

The supposed 3rd, 4th, and 108 sets are generally believed to have been made up by the folks claiming to possess them, as least as far as the CZK lineage is concerned. This is from folks who are disciples of CZK students and from Chen Yu. It's probably worth noting that CZK did not have any formal disciples, so anyone claiming to be such is already stretching the truth (at best). It's also probably worth noting that none of Chen Fake's known students have any those sets, either.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu May 23, 2019 8:37 am

Pennykid wrote:Sal, is that old Yang form of Lin Du Ying anywhere on the net? I've only ever seen Tian Zhaolin forms from the Yang Jian-hou lineage.
Well, there's also the small frame fast set but I suspect that is not what you're teaching your students -


No, I have never found a video for it.
I know only that Lin Du Ying had studied with both Tian Zhaolin and Wu Hai Chuan, so exactly where the old Yang came from (Yang Cheng Fu, Yang Ban Hou or even Yang Jian Hou), I haven't found out exactly yet.

The set looks like between Chen and Wu in postures
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu May 23, 2019 8:41 am

Bhassler wrote:The supposed 3rd, 4th, and 108 sets are generally believed to have been made up by the folks claiming to possess them, as least as far as the CZK lineage is concerned. This is from folks who are disciples of CZK students and from Chen Yu. It's probably worth noting that CZK did not have any formal disciples, so anyone claiming to be such is already stretching the truth (at best). It's also probably worth noting that none of Chen Fake's known students have any those sets, either.


Yeah, unfortunately people feel a need to make up stuff and then it gets passed on for generations of students sometimes.

The only thing for sure is the Handong Tong Bei 108 form, that is originally from the Chen 108 Long Fist set. That is well documented how it got there, and why.
Its not really like anything in Yi Lu or even Er Lu, that's why they didn't care to bring it back into the main curriculum.
It is historical relic, but Taiji it is not.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu May 23, 2019 9:04 am

chenyaolong wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote:
Yes, I know where Baji Quan originated, and by Chen Yan Xi's time, it was well spread out to Shandong and Tianjin, both places that he spent many years living and teaching. He was very respected in those areas, it would be strange for him not to interact with practitioners from other styles.

This site is the only place someone can have questions and can ask people what their learned opinion (or not learned, ha) is. And where people give insightful answers back.

For some reason the Chen Pao Chui we see today isn't matching up to what their old records say it comes from (Shaolin Pao Quan).
Having learned Baji, both mainland and Taiwan versions, I saw the postures in the Chen Pao Chui, I mean they are literally there (Chen Pao Chui has only 20 postures that are not in Yi Lu). I learned Shaolin Pao Quan in my younger years, none of these 20 postures are in any of the forms.
I thought it was a strange thing.
All the Yi Lu postures are found in various Shaolin sets of different types (Tong Bei, Hong Quan, Pao Quan, Rou Quan), why wouldn't that be true about these 20 Er Lu postures?

But the more "conjecturing" with people here, the more seeing that Chen Yan Xi might be the link (will I ever know for sure, no, but so what?).
Seems plausible to me. Chen Fake's Chen Pao Chui was something no one had ever seen before.
Yang family certainly didn't have it. I don't think the Pao Chui was available for his generation.
Because then Zhaobao would have it, but they don't.


Do you know how large Shandong province is? Even with modern transport it takes several hours to get from one city to another.


Yes, yes, I have looked at maps of where Baji was taught in Shandong and where Chen Yan Xi taught, it overlaps.
Starting in 1900, he lived for many years in the capital of Shandong as martial arts teacher for the family of Yuan Shikai (1859–1916) the military leader and temporary president of the Republic in 1912, He had like 9 concubines, so a load of children. Died in 1916
Baji was popular in Jinan, the capital. The first Baji national examinations were held there.
After that, Chen Yan Xi taught in Tianjin for 6 years, Baji is big there as well.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu May 23, 2019 9:49 am

Bob wrote:Which of the bajiquan forms fit your conceptualization of Pao Chui?
Jin Gang Ba Shi?
Xiao Baji Jia?
Da Baji?
Baji/Pigua combination?
Baji Lian Huan (linking form)?
Liu Da Kai?
Ba Da Zao?

Since you cite the late Charles Chen as one of your instructors, is your reference comparison the Li Shunwen/Liu Yunqiao lineage?s)


I Learned a lot more Baji Quan from a student of Pan Wenxue

Jin Gang Bashi is Shaolin derived, that is acknowledged history, its not that,
Not Baji/Pigua at all.

The forms are the Da Baji, the xiao Baji, Baji Lian Huan, those are enough really.
Those are the most common.

In most all Baji forms, you so from the Chen Er Lu the following moves many times:
11. Cutting Hands (Zhan Shou)

12. Turn Flowers Out and Brandish Sleeves (Fan Hua Wu Xiu)

13. Hidden Thrust Punch (Yan Shou Gong Quan)

20. Beast's Head Pose (Shou Tuo Shi)

21. Splitting Pose (Pia Jia Zhi)

22. Turn Flowers Out and Brandish Sleeves (Fan Hua Wu Xiu)

23. Hidden Thrust Punch (Yan Shou Gong Quan)


Watch this instructional Baji Lian Huan video, so many moves of Er Lu are there, the Hidden Punch is exactly like Chen Pao Chui, most of the moves from the 3 and 4 sections of Pao Chui are there, etc, etc


Da Baji


Xiao Baji (firecracker is there, only this form and Pao chui have that move)
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu May 23, 2019 9:50 am

Franklin wrote:just saw this video today - and made me think of this thread

sanhuangpaochui
at about 4:05 in this video
what he is doing looks like chen style erlu


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8HPtiG3lIQ


San Huang is from Emei, far from chen and it was modernizes into what you see today by internal martial arts like TjQ.
So Chen influenced what it look today
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby Bob on Thu May 23, 2019 12:32 pm

The training methodology, shen fa/structure of, and purpose of Xiao Baji Jia are completely different from that which is expressed in Pao Chui - there is a two person part to Xiao Baji Jia which is not found in Pao Chui - also there are many variations of Xiao Baji Jia (12 I know of). Xiao Baji Jia is the foundational training in Liu's lineage whereas Pao Chui is the "icing on the cake" in Chen style taiji, at least as how it is told to me by lineage holders in the system.

Just for the record, what is labeled as Jin Gang Bashi in Liu's line is not the Shaolin (longfist) version found in Tianjin - Liu's Jin Gang Bashi is 100% bajiquan.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu May 23, 2019 7:11 pm

Bob wrote:The training methodology, shen fa/structure of, and purpose of Xiao Baji Jia are completely different from that which is expressed in Pao Chui - there is a two person part to Xiao Baji Jia which is not found in Pao Chui - also there are many variations of Xiao Baji Jia (12 I know of). Xiao Baji Jia is the foundational training in Liu's lineage whereas Pao Chui is the "icing on the cake" in Chen style taiji, at least as how it is told to me by lineage holders in the system.

Just for the record, what is labeled as Jin Gang Bashi in Liu's line is not the Shaolin (longfist) version found in Tianjin - Liu's Jin Gang Bashi is 100% bajiquan.


Yeah, because Baji is Baji and Chen Pao Chui is Chen Pao Chui.
What I see is Baji's Postures were used as a framework (like Taizu Quan was used as the framework for Yi Lu) or perhaps both Baji's postures and the Pao Chui's postures share a source?
Baji, even though practiced by Chinese Muslims is not related to any other Chinese Muslim martial arts (Hua Quan, Cha Quan, etc).
Baji claims a Taoist origin based on Spear movements. So does Chen martial arts by way of Taoist Tong Bei (which is half Shaolin, as infused into the Yi Lu set and half Taoist martial arts based on spear),
Perhaps somehow they have a common ancestor via Taoist Spear martial arts?

But I still go back to Chen Yan Xi, he was just too close in proximity to Baji practitioners.
Pao Chui effectively died out by his time, Small Frame died out by his time.
Only through his relatives and students do we even have Chen Lao Jia and Xiao Jia today, and Chen Fake reintroduced the Pao Chui to the martial arts world.
Chen Zhao Pei couldn't even teach it in Chen village because of his health and the risk.
So, Chen Zhao Kui had to reintroduce Small Frame and then New Frame, via Chen Fake.

And, I've been only looking here in this thread at the Lao Jia!
Looking at the New Frame of Chen Fake and his son, it is even more crazy Baji like to me.
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu May 23, 2019 7:54 pm

ok you might like this Chen genealogy chart, its pretty big and proves one of my points, that the linage had almost died out in Chen village:
http://molingtaiji.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Genechenlineage.jpg

and yet another site with information showing that ALL the Chen TJQ that we so today is RESTRUCTURED, like I said before, from Chen Fake's lineage.
Chen Lao Jia had to be rebuilt, what we see today as Lao Jia is not the Lao Jia practiced before Chen Yan Xi's time (Chen Fake's father).
Perhap's indeed the Yang and the Wu Hao Style have a glimpse of the old Chen martial art (can't call it TJQ since it wasn't called that yet)

What is being said here? That from the time that Zhao Pei left Chen village and then Chen Fake left in the 1920s to about 1958, it almost died out in Chen village.
And they had to bring it back to Chen village, and they had to rebuild it. the Lao Jia Yi Lu and Er Lu,
So, it had to have changed from the way that it was originally, back in Yang Lu Chan's time and back before Chen Chen Changxing.
And, there was one person left that knew the Small Frame, otherwise it too would have went extinct.

http://molingtaiji.com/chen-taijiquan-survival-in-chen-village-through-the-difficult-years/

http://molingtaiji.com/chen-taijiquan-survival-in-chen-village-through-the-difficult-years-part-3/
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Re: So why does Chen Pao Chui set look . . .

Postby everything on Thu May 23, 2019 9:11 pm

So most of this material is/was near extinction.

Sad but wouldn't be surprising.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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