"Through the crowd", Sam Chin, Iliqchuan

[ILIQCHUAN RUSSIA]

1) "Through the crowd", Sam Chin, Moscow, November 2008 >>>

2) Demonstration on meeting with Vologda Iliqchuan student >>>


3) A lot of photo of Moscow&Vologda workshops >>>http://iliqchuan.ru/index.php?id=184

[ashe]

Not sure what the title "through a people" is supposed to imply. Can you elaborate?

[dragontigerpalm]

My guess is that it means that Sifu is working his way through the students (people) one at a time making short work of each in the process.

[Dmitri]

"[working his way, with ease,] through the crowd" is my understanding.

[ashe]

respex mang

[ILIQCHUAN RUSSIA]

Yea, now the topic is better.

[RobP]

That's a shame I was hoping to see some crowd work

[ILIQCHUAN RUSSIA]

2 RobP, Don't be so directly and life will be easy.

[Bao]

"[working his way, with ease,] through the crowd"

Yes, it should be no trouble do that "with ease" when the students are stiff as dry wood.

[ashe]

"[working his way, with ease,] through the crowd"

Yes, it should be no trouble do that "with ease" when the students are stiff as dry wood.

well, i think they just appear more stiff in the clip then what they actually are. this is due to the effect that capturing the mass effectively can have. we call it "jam and freeze". it's has the effect of leaving the opponent feeling as if they've been wrapped in a wet blanket and have a pair of concrete shoes on. it becomes tough to move effectively at all when someone has very accurately captured your mass.

as a comment on the second clip, it's great to see the kids program coming along.

[Bao]

"[working his way, with ease,] through the crowd"

Yes, it should be no trouble do that "with ease" when the students are stiff as dry wood.

well, i think they just appear more stiff in the clip then what they actually are. this is due to the effect that capturing the mass effectively can have.

Come on Ash, what you call "capturing mass" is nothing special in IMA. It is quite common knowledge, and frankly, it's also quite basic. This is what you use on beginners in tuishou.

If you don't give away something to hold on to, it is not that easy. The clip is an example of exactly why we say that people rely to much on structure. If you let your opponent feel your structure, you give him something to hold on to. You should have very relaxed arms and keep a light touch. Then your reactions will be fast and you won't give away yourself that easy.

The best defense when someone tries to "capture" your mass is "collapse (limp) and change (the angle or direction of your center towards your opponent)".

[ashe]

Come on Ash, what you call "capturing mass" is nothing special in IMA. It is quite common knowledge, and frankly, it's also quite basic. This is what you use on beginners in tuishou.

If you don't give away something to hold on to, it is not that easy. The clip is an example of exactly why we say that people rely to much on structure. If you let your opponent feel your structure, you give him something to hold on to. You should have very relaxed arms and keep a light touch. Then your reactions will be fast and you won't give away yourself that easy.

The best defense when someone tries to "capture" your mass is "collapse (limp) and change (the angle or direction of your center towards your opponent)".

well yes it should be basic, but then again advanced techniques are just the very basics done to perfection. but many people miss that point, which is why we say "the secrets protect themselves".

from an ILC point of view, just going limp is not a good thing. how can you redirect by just doing limp? there's no engagement there. it may work in stationary push hands competitions but when it comes to fighting you get squashed like a bug.

then again, even in stationary push hands it might protect you some from being pushed, but it won't save you from being pulled if i can get a angle to grab you from.

A lot of people have the wrong idea of what resistance is. If you collapse everytime force comes at you, then you better just run!
-Sam F.S. Chin
Nei Jia Quan - Internal Martial Arts 2nd Edition
Edited by Jess O'Brien
pg. 105

[RobP]

2 RobP, Don't be so directly and life will be easy.

Sorry I don't get your meaning

[Upyu]

<snip>
but when it comes to fighting you get squashed like a bug.
<snip>

I'll take two helpings of that quote

Bao:
Sure capturing mass is basic, but how many people can actually do it.
If I had a nickle for every guy that COULDN'T source his forces from his middle and lower body...

[Ian]

"[working his way, with ease,] through the crowd"

Yes, it should be no trouble do that "with ease" when the students are stiff as dry wood.

well, i think they just appear more stiff in the clip then what they actually are. this is due to the effect that capturing the mass effectively can have.

I agree with Bao on this.

The reason why you can 'capture the mass' is because your partner is holding a rigid zhan zhuang-type posture and isn't moving his feet. It's easy to do this against someone who's stiff.

I'm not trying to get personal. Sam Chin has tremendous skill, and his stuff works.

But in terms of tactics:

from an ILC point of view, just going limp is not a good thing. how can you redirect by just doing limp? there's no engagement there.

You don't always have to bridge and redirect. There are tons of other ways to engage.