The Guoshu Guan and Martial Arts in 20th Century China

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Re: The Guoshu Guan and Martial Arts in 20th Century China

Postby everything on Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:48 pm

Steve James wrote:Jmo, but I don't think it was the Yang connection to Beijing that was the thing. It was the Wu connection to the military, not the government. Ma Yueh Liang's family was also in the military (iirc, I heard his father was a commander at one of the Beijing gates. At any rate, I think it was Sun Lutang who was the most ardently "nationalist," and his student was Chen Weiming --who later went to study with YCF. Sun was close to the nationalist generals, especially Li Jinglin. That's how ma theory came to be part of a nationalist agenda, along with the idea of internal and external.


I didn't know any of that, but it sounds like Sun is pretty central to this activity.

Another thing that doesn't seem easy to find out is if any of the "Wudang" folks competed in the tournament.
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Re: The Guoshu Guan and Martial Arts in 20th Century China

Postby Steve James on Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:40 pm

Another thing that doesn't seem easy to find out is if any of the "Wudang" folks competed in the tournament.


The did, but they didn't win any --when YCF and WCC were there.

Sun is pretty central to this activity.


He was. But, General Li Jingli ("Divine sword Li" was the central person, even though--from what I've heard-- it was politically impossible for him to actually run the academy. Btw, Kao Cheng-Tung was head of the Wudang section, not Sun, Yang, or Wu. There's a good group picture of the instructors online somewhere.
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Re: The Guoshu Guan and Martial Arts in 20th Century China

Postby everything on Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:34 am

Steve James wrote:
Another thing that doesn't seem easy to find out is if any of the "Wudang" folks competed in the tournament.


The did, but they didn't win any --when YCF and WCC were there.


If they didn't win any - why would they want to keep this "section" of instruction?
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Re: The Guoshu Guan and Martial Arts in 20th Century China

Postby everything on Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:51 am

It looks like we discussed this subsequent tournament here:
https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5937

referencing this blog post:
http://wulinmingshi.com/2018/01/15/the- ... ournament/

in which xingyiquan including Sun's students and yiquan appear to have been fairly well represented. List of top finishers:

1. Wang Ziqing (skilled at shaolin & shuai jiao)
2. Zhu Guolu (xingyi and boxing)
3. Zhang Dianqing (fanzi quan, shuai jiao, yiquan)
4. Cao Yanhai (originally studied Mizong quan. Learnt Tongbei from Ma Yingtu, pigua from Guo Changsheng, later studied under Sun Lutang)
5. Hu Fengshan (originally studied xingyi under Tang Shilin., later became Sun Lutang’s disciple)
6. Ma Chengzhi (originally shaolin,later studied xingyi under Sun Lutang)
7. Han Qingtang (praying mantis, taizu long fist, especially expert at qin’na)
8. Wan Changsheng (learnt Cha quan from Ma Jinbiao)
9. Zhu Zhenglin (learnt Tai Yi Men under Yang Mingzhai)
10. Zhang Xiaocai (learnt Cha Quan under Ma Jinbiao)
11. Gao Zuolin
12. Yue Xia (bagua under Zhao Weixian)
13. Zhao Daoxin (Yiquan)
14. Li Qinglan
15. Shang Zhenshan
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Re: The Guoshu Guan and Martial Arts in 20th Century China

Postby everything on Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:53 am

What a pity that the war scattered this gathering of combined knowledge. So much seems lost.
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Re: The Guoshu Guan and Martial Arts in 20th Century China

Postby Steve James on Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:20 pm

Note how many of the top finishers cross trained or had experience with several martial arts. Bringing these masters/practitioners together was an accomplishment. Yes, the war was a tragedy for it.
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Re: The Guoshu Guan and Martial Arts in 20th Century China

Postby taiwandeutscher on Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:11 pm

everything wrote:What a pity that the war scattered this gathering of combined knowledge. So much seems lost.


True that! Not only for the teachers/masters, but also for many students, who could not finish their studies (one of my teachers did 1 yr, then war came).

BTW: There is a publication on the Guoshuguan, which is a good resource for researchers:

中央國術館史 ISBN 7-80630-055-4 1996/June

Probably out of print, but maybe 2nd hand.
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Re: The Guoshu Guan and Martial Arts in 20th Century China

Postby everything on Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:28 pm

It would seem like most of the knowledge has been lost. However, given the styles listed in the ranking above (from the latter tournament, not the first one), some arts used don't seem lost:

- xingyiquan plus yiquan is mentioned a few times. Not sure it is thriving, but it doesn't seem to be extinct.
- shuai jiao is mentioned a few times and still exists, seemingly with lots of knowledge being passed on
- bagua mentioned once.

Notice that taijiquan isn't mentioned.
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Re: The Guoshu Guan and Martial Arts in 20th Century China

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:14 pm

everything wrote:It would seem like most of the knowledge has been lost. However, given the styles listed in the ranking above (from the latter tournament, not the first one), some arts used don't seem lost:

what knowledge would this be
what would be an indicator of one who has the "knowledge"
in other words what would one expect them to do with this "knowledge" that
would indicate they have it ?


- xingyiquan plus yiquan is mentioned a few times. Not sure it is thriving, but it doesn't seem to be extinct.
- shuai jiao is mentioned a few times and still exists, seemingly with lots of knowledge being passed on
- bagua mentioned once.

Notice that taijiquan isn't mentioned.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Guoshu Guan and Martial Arts in 20th Century China

Postby everything on Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:12 pm

how do we know people like Royce or Fedor have "knowledge"?

suppose after the Tokyo police dept tournament of judo vs. jujutsu that there were a civil war, and the Kodokan ceased to exist and judo then bjj then ufc/mma didn't develop the way they did. instead, with that kind of "spreading of knowledge", we can look back and say the Kodokan is probably the single most influential "institute" in martial arts from the late 19th to the early 21st century.

imagine if this Guoshu Guan could've survived and had some kind of influence. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

would Fedor have been a master of judo and sambo? maybe he would show us shuai jiao, xingyi, yiquan, bagua, etc.. maybe instead of Rousey by armbar it would be Rousey by piquan. Who knows what is lost.
Last edited by everything on Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Guoshu Guan and Martial Arts in 20th Century China

Postby Steve James on Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:03 pm

Well, the war certainly dispersed martial artists and prevented them from working together. However, after the war, these particular martial artists --who had been recruited and promoted by nationalists-- were not permitted to reconstitute anything like the academy. Everything had to be under the direct control of the state, and most of the martial artists that the world heard of after the war came from Hong Kong, Shanghai, Taiwan, Malaysia and places not under PRC control. Practitioners there have unbroken traditions. Shuai jiao is a perfect example.

Anyway, the second wave of introduction came when the PRC decided to make "wu shu" an important cultural export of its own.
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Re: The Guoshu Guan and Martial Arts in 20th Century China

Postby Trick on Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:34 pm

Many people has over the years said that rel GongFu survivedbut was only practiced in Taiwan and Southeast Asia ....Yet when the PRC opened up and became available many went there to learn
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Re: The Guoshu Guan and Martial Arts in 20th Century China

Postby Steve James on Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:44 am

I don't know about real Kung fu. But, many teachers in Taiwan had teachers who studied or taught at the Academy.
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Re: The Guoshu Guan and Martial Arts in 20th Century China

Postby Trick on Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:10 am

I guess if that academy would had survived things would still go the way toward what we have today in the wushu world - taolu & sanda
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Re: The Guoshu Guan and Martial Arts in 20th Century China

Postby Steve James on Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:28 am

It's an interesting point. Wushu a la 19mid-70s seems to have been a PRC thing. The first wushu troupes we saw were from Peking.
https://www.nytimes.com/1974/07/05/arch ... zzles.html

All my Taiwanese teachers would say that wushu was "communist," not "Chinese." But, you now, if they hadn't left the PRC, we wouldn't have learned about tcma for much longer. Westerners were not allowed to go to learn in the PRC until after it allowed them in. And, they wouldn't have known where to go anyway. :)
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