What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:30 am

North Star Martial Arts
Published on Jun 14, 2019

In this episode of Tai Chi Master Peach Theatre we discuss why the Tai Chi Classics are attributed to Zhang Sanfeng and the key martial arts concept of "JIN" 勁

Advanced concepts in Tai Chi, Baguazhang, and Chinese Internal martial arts.
Part of a series:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsOtFbSm4bE
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1819
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby windwalker on Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:29 am

marvin8 wrote:North Star Martial Arts
Published on Jun 14, 2019

In this episode of Tai Chi Master Peach Theatre we discuss why the Tai Chi Classics are attributed to Zhang Sanfeng and the key martial arts concept of "JIN" 勁

Advanced concepts in Tai Chi, Baguazhang, and Chinese Internal martial arts.
Part of a series:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsOtFbSm4bE




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ImebtD800M
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 7599
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby Bao on Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:47 am

Saw that.... Hard to write anything about it. He basically says that using jin is wrong. Very strange. :-\ His appreciation of the term is completely off. Jin in Tai Chi is the outer expression of specific, trained internal conditions. Whatever he claims to express on the outside, if there is any form of Tai Chi skill, there is Jin.

.... and obviously as WW shows, he contradicts himself. :P
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7130
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:57 am

Yeah, he's a damn charlatan.

David Dorian Ross did a webcast with him yesterday and even that guy was calling bullshit on his claims and conclusions, in as much as his kindergarten teacher-esque persona allows him to disagree.

It was kind of refreshing and frustrating because I was all like "Ha, you're giving this fraud a platform, that means you're a fraud, too!" but then the actual content was challenging him so I gained more respect for DDR
"My own knowledge is shallow and I await corrections from the intelligent."
-Hermit of Jade Well
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby everything on Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:02 am

I can't watch any of this based purely on your comments.

I have a friend, good at all sports, including judo and bjj, who went to learn from this dude. He only said good things, but that could just be he never says anything negative, really.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5147
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby everything on Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:05 am

ok I lied. I tried to watch the video but it's not that I have any complaint. Just no words kind of went in my brain. Not sure what he was trying to say.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5147
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby charles on Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:58 am

Just out of curiosity, how many examples of his do we need to illustrate that what he's about has little to do with traditional Taijiquan?
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1610
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby everything on Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:21 am

probably one is enough and at this point these should just be OTT?
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 5147
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:28 am

windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote:North Star Martial Arts
Published on Jun 14, 2019

In this episode of Tai Chi Master Peach Theatre we discuss why the Tai Chi Classics are attributed to Zhang Sanfeng and the key martial arts concept of "JIN



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ImebtD800M



He has watched too many Earle Montague tapes
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3610
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby Bao on Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:05 pm

wayne hansen wrote:He has watched too many Earle Montague tapes


That is maybe true. Phillips seems to be a Chen guy but moves Montaguesqe. Wouldn't be surprised if Erle sent him all the tapes. Erle often did send people a lot of videos.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7130
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:48 pm

Yes he was the promoters promoter
All that rock and roll training paid off
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3610
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby Bao on Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:32 pm

In the next similarly utterly confused episode, he says that something no one is teaching and no one knows about is unbroken, continuous movement which is in fact a secret and is not about using jin.
-argh- -argh- -argh-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzMK_ZjMVk

I thought about publishing this comment on his Youtube video, but as I understand that he prefers to keep himself ignorant, I'll respect that and try not to educate him about rudimentary things every beginner in the traditional styles are taught.: "Sorry if I'll have to burst your bubble, but continuous unbroken movement is not a secret. Instead it's one of the most basic aspects of Tai Chi movement. I can recommend you to read the Tai Chi classics: "Chang Quan is like the great river rolling on unceasingly." Yang Chengfu refers to this as well as many old Tai Chi books. Yang style has a specific term for a kind of unbroken, continuous movement that should always be present in every movement of the form, but as you deal mainly with Chen style, I won't bother you more with this."
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7130
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:08 pm

Yeah delusional man this guy wow
"My own knowledge is shallow and I await corrections from the intelligent."
-Hermit of Jade Well
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1956
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby marvin8 on Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:17 pm

Bao wrote:In the next similarly utterly confused episode, he says that something no one is teaching and no one knows about is unbroken, continuous movement which is in fact a secret and is not about using jin.
-argh- -argh- -argh-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzMK_ZjMVk

I thought about publishing this comment on his Youtube video, but as I understand that he prefers to keep himself ignorant, I'll respect that and try not to educate him about rudimentary things every beginner in the traditional styles are taught.: "Sorry if I'll have to burst your bubble, but continuous unbroken movement is not a secret. Instead it's one of the most basic aspects of Tai Chi movement.

I'll attempt to paraphrase the two videos (to better understand Scott's viewpoint): Jin doesn’t work that well if you have to fight someone heavier than you and more aggressive. Get rid of jin and force against force. Instead cultivate emptiness, counterbalance, floating root (e.g., George Xu, Richard Clear), etc.

Scott said "continuous connection," not continuous movement. Don’t use jin use continuous connection. How do you get continuous connection? You get it using four words Xukong Lingtong. We are only going to talk about xu right now, "hollow body” (aka empty body). Xu: empty like a puppet, "dead weight" body, but it is also radiant and luminous. “Hollow body” exercise cultivates maximum gravity, etc.

Hollow body (e.g., NoSword in RSF discussion) is an concept/exercise used by acrobats, gymnasts and aerial artists. Here a Ciruqe du Soleil acrobat does a hollow body exercise. (At 3:30, the acrobat says a celebrity surgeon said you'll never have back problems [e.g., johnwang's hunchback thread], if you do the exercise well):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1K0BdjnNks&t=3m30s

Excerpt from "Details of the Pure Internal Neigong Workshop this Friday:"

Scott Park Phillips on March 19, 2018 wrote:The first big change was the ability to create the illusion that I was moving one way, when I was actually moving in a different way. In simple terms, people automatically try to read my intent, but if my intent is habitually not in my own body, people usually mis-read it. This creates an illusion of power. I categorize this practice as emptiness, because it is the result of practicing moving/fighting/dancing exclusively with intent outside my body.

The second big change was the ability to counter-balance all incoming forces. This is what the Classics mean when they say "never go force against force." It creates the counter-intuitive illusion of unstoppable force. Once I understood this, my mind exploded because I realized that the Waltz was a more direct way to learn these skills (and that became another workshop I teach). This revelation forced me to start over from the beginning and re-learn all the martial arts I have learned over the last 40 years.

Those two big changes then revealed something completely un-expected, which is the subject of this workshop. In simple terms, following these new rules-of-movement changed my physical body. It forced me to reverse all the power organization in my body. In the last few years I have turned my body inside out! I started developing protocols of strength training by combining Daoyin with Circus training and then testing and refining them with my martial arts students. There are basically two types of active resistance tests, fast and slow. Slow tests are tests for the continuity of illusion. Fast tests are tests of whole-body unity. This fantastic feed-back loop led to a complete reconceptualization of how my body is organized. The beauty of it is that it makes everything simpler.

I began to see the basic training of Chinese Opera-Circus basics with new eyes. Much of the New Circus movement came out of the technology of Chinese Opera (via Lu Yi at the San Francisco Circus Center, among others) which was originally saturated with Daoist meditation techniques including the Golden Elixir. In the early Twentieth Century these types of techniques were considered "banned religion" and went underground. (They were nearly lost during a century of mass murder).

The material I am teaching Friday is how to develop a reverse-power body. This class is dedicated to strength training and conditioning. You will sweat and burn. This approach can heal a lot of old injuries and make you better looking. I will also attempt to transmit an understanding of how all the pieces of internal martial arts fit together, and overview of the process that allowed me to created this self-testing feed-back-loop--so you can develop one too.
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 1819
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: What is Jin 勁? — Scott P. Phillips

Postby robert on Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:37 pm

marvin8 wrote:I'll attempt to paraphrase the two videos (to better understand Scott's viewpoint): Jin doesn’t work that well if you have to fight someone heavier than you and more aggressive. Get rid of jin and force against force.

That shows a lack of understanding regarding jin. Just looking at the 8 main jin, lu is not force against force and lu is a type of jin.

lu. 捋勁
Rollback is when you use one hand (using the edge of the palm near the wrist) to stick to an opponent’s wrist while using the other hand (using the forearm area) to stick to his arm, sending him behind you. Therefore it is used to compensate for the inadequacies of the other forms of issuing. When issuing with the other energies, an opponent will typically go backwards as he falls away. If he is aware of this happening, he will soften and send his center of balance forward to keep himself from leaning back. Right at that moment, apply rollback energy, taking advantage of his forward lean by drawing him in with a rollback, making him lean forward so much that he falls down behind you.

Yielding is a type of jin. 走勁
To yield is to evade the opponent’s major force so that you are not resisting each other. Therefore when making contact with the opponent, as soon as your hand senses he has any intention of pressure, switch to becoming empty. If you encounter pressure on one side, loosen that side, or if you encounter pressure on both sides, sink one side, thereby draining away his force, sending it away in the direction it is headed so there is not the slightest resistance, causing him to lose his balance entirely and achieve nothing at all.

Neutralizing is a type of jin. 化勁
Neutralizing is based upon sticking and yielding. Neither coming away nor crashing in, sense what is happening and neutralize it – these two things do not depart from each other, whether advancing, retreating, or moving to either side. The key to neutralizing lies entirely in smoothing as the opponent coarsens. If you can attain this condition, then even if the opponent uses a thousand pounds of force, he will not be able to do anything with it. Therefore neutralizing is crucial within Taiji Boxing.

These are from Chen Yanlin's Taiji manual. There are others as well.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Huajing
 
Posts: 295
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Next

Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest