Sun Taiji Form

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Re: Sun Taiji Form

Postby BruceP on Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:36 pm

marvin8 wrote:...asking if how it explains athletes move (e.g., wave, etc.) is it the same as in the internal arts. Interloper essentially said no, it's different. Are the way athletes use waves, etc., as explained in the article used in the same way as in internal martial arts (e.g., Sun Taiji)?


No, it's different


BHassler wrote: Until someone comes up with a similarly clear and detailed post of how "internal" skills are supposed to work that's "different" than the principles (not details, principles) outlined in the article referenced above, they're really just blowing smoke, and likely have no idea what they're talking about


Neutrality Principle.


Intent initiates the wave in a different way. IMA is 'wave response and initialization'. Athletics. like what's cited above. initializes the wave from premeditation and follows the form of the activity in which that wave is applied.

I'm not attempting to explain how ""internal" is supposed to work" since there are too many chefs cooking their own individual broth to have an overarching summation of all those broths. But, I have explained how to create 'wave response and initialization' in the past. Anyone who has tried the exercise will know what the differences are between performance-based use of our natural ability to apply waves, and our innate ability to respond to "internal" stimulus and initialize waves which are devoid of any performance-based context.
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Re: Sun Taiji Form

Postby Sean on Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:13 pm

But, I have explained how to create 'wave response and initialization' in the past. Anyone who has tried the exercise will know what the differences are between performance-based use of our natural ability to apply waves, and our innate ability to respond to "internal" stimulus and initialize waves which are devoid of any performance-based context.


I've been absent from this board for quite some time so I've missed this. Could you explain or provide a link to your explanation of wave response and initialization?

And could you also explain what you mean by initializing waves "which are devoid of any performance-based context?"

Thanks.
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Re: Sun Taiji Form

Postby everything on Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:19 pm

Bhassler wrote:It depends. It's sort of like comparing an all wheel drive sports car to a 4 wheel drive pickup truck. There are major differences in powertrain, suspension, etc that vastly change how the vehicle performs, and those differences are really important. But at the same time, they both use internal combustion engines, have 4 wheels that can provide power, some kind of suspension that works off the same principles of physics, driver controls that are more the same than they are different, etc. If you're talking about "how does a car work?", then we can ignore most of those differences. If we're talking about "what car should I buy?" or "how do I fix my busted old wreck of a vehicle?", then we need details.

But it's not like comparing a diesel pickup to a Tesla, because a diesel truck and a Tesla are manufactured using fundamentally different components. We all have the same pieces-parts, and they all operate in more or less the same way. We can adjust how we use those parts and get some really significant improvements in one direction or another, but we can't change the essential nature of physics and how we're built.

EDIT: Until someone comes up with a similarly clear and detailed post of how "internal" skills are supposed to work that's "different" than the principles (not details, principles) outlined in the article referenced above, they're really just blowing smoke, and likely have no idea what they're talking about. Doesn't mean they can't do cool stuff, it just means that they don't have the tools to differentiate things in a meaningful way. Caveat emptor.


This is great. I'm not a scientist but the null hypothesis should be "there is no difference between internal/external". Of course, most of us probably don't think that, but it's really useful to just keep the null hypothesis w/o evidence against it.
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Re: Sun Taiji Form

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:48 pm

Bhassler wrote:.EDIT: Until someone comes up with a similarly clear and detailed post of how "internal" skills are supposed to work that's "different" than the principles (not details, principles) outlined in the article referenced above, they're really just blowing smoke, and likely have no idea what they're talking about.


How Internal skills work compared to external skills might be of less importance. I am not interested in trying to define what is Internal compared to external. But how we practice is important and what we focus on in our practices. If you work with your mind and body one way for 20 years you will have very different results from another way of working with mind and body. What you call what you do doesn’t matter. I liked what the article above said in its conclusions:

“- The most important aspects of movement may not be measurable or easily observed
- We can still optimize movement based on understanding of movement principles
- We must take a closer look at how our body integrates the laws of physics versus fighting them”

The author’s point is that much of sports and physical practice and its philosophy needs to learn more about “how our body integrates the laws of physics versus fighting them.” This means that the general focus of physical practice is generally not the same as in the Internal Arts practice. Principles of doing something most efficient as possible with the body might be the same. But the general understanding in much of the physical sports does not have the absolute focus on these principles. Thus we can assume that those principles are not always the goal nor main focus in many physical arts. If not, how could they possibly reach the same skills as an art that has it? :-\
Last edited by Bao on Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sun Taiji Form

Postby Michael Babin on Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:13 pm

Hello again Sean
Yes, I do practise the traditional solo Sun sword set but not the two-person version that is cunningly hidden with the solo version; I always suspected that Sun had modified a version of the popular-in-his-time San Cai Jian to create his own version. I have spent some time in the past learning most of the interactive exercise of the latter; but have never studied Sun's version.

On the other hand, I am not crazy about long two-person sets in terms of their practicality for teaching free-style skills so have focussed in the last many years on basic applications as well as a variety of unstructured sparring "games" that use several types of training swords as well as fencing masks and/or protective equipment for the arms and torso. Lots of fun and well worth the occasional bruise to the flesh or the ego when one "loses".

Perhaps a good motto for long-term martial arts training would be "Come for the fighting; stay for the character-building and good fun to be had!"
Website & Martial Blog http://www.mbtaiji.net
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Re: Sun Taiji Form

Postby Bhassler on Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:47 pm

BruceP wrote:Neutrality Principle.


Intent initiates the wave in a different way. IMA is 'wave response and initialization'. Athletics. like what's cited above. initializes the wave from premeditation and follows the form of the activity in which that wave is applied.

I'm not attempting to explain how ""internal" is supposed to work" since there are too many chefs cooking their own individual broth to have an overarching summation of all those broths. But, I have explained how to create 'wave response and initialization' in the past. Anyone who has tried the exercise will know what the differences are between performance-based use of our natural ability to apply waves, and our innate ability to respond to "internal" stimulus and initialize waves which are devoid of any performance-based context.


I think I have an inkling of what you're talking about. I've done push hands where I've set people up and thrown them out (or down, or whatever), and I've done it where a trained response has happened even ahead of conscious thought to deal with people. A few times, though, I've thrown people out by doing something I've never done before. It's not the same action, but it feels kind of how a horse shudders to throw off flies-- it's like the intent of "OFF" just manifests itself and does what it does (and does it well). Is that what you're talking about?

In my experience, that's a different manifestation of the skills and attributes that have been built through "premeditated" practice. They transcend the original context of the practice in how they appear, but are still using the same baseline skills and physics. I may be talking about something totally different than you, though. I'm sure if we ever met in person we could sort it out in a couple of minutes. I'll bring the beer, you bring the brains....
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Re: Sun Taiji Form

Postby Bhassler on Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:00 pm

everything wrote:
Bhassler wrote:It depends. It's sort of like comparing an all wheel drive sports car to a 4 wheel drive pickup truck. There are major differences in powertrain, suspension, etc that vastly change how the vehicle performs, and those differences are really important. But at the same time, they both use internal combustion engines, have 4 wheels that can provide power, some kind of suspension that works off the same principles of physics, driver controls that are more the same than they are different, etc. If you're talking about "how does a car work?", then we can ignore most of those differences. If we're talking about "what car should I buy?" or "how do I fix my busted old wreck of a vehicle?", then we need details.

But it's not like comparing a diesel pickup to a Tesla, because a diesel truck and a Tesla are manufactured using fundamentally different components. We all have the same pieces-parts, and they all operate in more or less the same way. We can adjust how we use those parts and get some really significant improvements in one direction or another, but we can't change the essential nature of physics and how we're built.

EDIT: Until someone comes up with a similarly clear and detailed post of how "internal" skills are supposed to work that's "different" than the principles (not details, principles) outlined in the article referenced above, they're really just blowing smoke, and likely have no idea what they're talking about. Doesn't mean they can't do cool stuff, it just means that they don't have the tools to differentiate things in a meaningful way. Caveat emptor.


This is great. I'm not a scientist but the null hypothesis should be "there is no difference between internal/external". Of course, most of us probably don't think that, but it's really useful to just keep the null hypothesis w/o evidence against it.


I didn't say there was no difference. It's more that there's a point of divergence between any separate practices that makes them not the same thing. Looking at a hierarchy of concepts with the most universal at the top, Newtonian physics is somewhere near the top. Bruce's concept of wave response and initialization as something that exists inseparably from the intent and experience of the individual and what that means in application is somewhere near the bottom, as not many people can manifest that or have a specific method for getting there. Bruce, at least, offers a specific requirement for internal practice-- intent. There's (I think) more that goes with it, that gets wrapped up in the Neutrality Principle, but I would argue that the presence of intent doesn't negate the presence (or need for) the physical elements. Those can be illustrated in posts from years ago where Bruce talked about manual labor teaching internal movement principles.

To make an analogy (because I like analogies), External Guy may be making hamburgers, and Internal Guy may be making meatloaf. There are extra ingredients that turn hamburger into meatloaf, but those extra ingredients don't diminish the importance of the hamburger in the meal, as you can't have the meatloaf without it.
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Re: Sun Taiji Form

Postby Bhassler on Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:07 pm

Bao wrote:
Bhassler wrote:.EDIT: Until someone comes up with a similarly clear and detailed post of how "internal" skills are supposed to work that's "different" than the principles (not details, principles) outlined in the article referenced above, they're really just blowing smoke, and likely have no idea what they're talking about.


How Internal skills work compared to external skills might be of less importance. I am not interested in trying to define what is Internal compared to external. But how we practice is important and what we focus on in our practices. If you work with your mind and body one way for 20 years you will have very different results from another way of working with mind and body. What you call what you do doesn’t matter. I liked what the article above said in its conclusions:

“- The most important aspects of movement may not be measurable or easily observed
- We can still optimize movement based on understanding of movement principles
- We must take a closer look at how our body integrates the laws of physics versus fighting them”

The author’s point is that much of sports and physical practice and its philosophy needs to learn more about “how our body integrates the laws of physics versus fighting them.” This means that the general focus of physical practice is generally not the same as in the Internal Arts practice. Principles of doing something most efficient as possible with the body might be the same. But the general understanding in much of the physical sports does not have the absolute focus on these principles. Thus we can assume that those principles are not always the goal nor main focus in many physical arts. If not, how could they possibly reach the same skills as an art that has it? :-\


You can't say "I am not interested in trying to define what is internal compared to external" and then say "This means that the general focus of physical practice is generally not the same as in the Internal Arts practice." Well, you can, but it doesn't make any sense. How do you know what isn't "internal" when you haven't defined what internal is? What are the skills that are to be reached by this phantom "it" that so-called external arts don't have? Until you can clarify those things, you really haven't said anything.

As an aside, you talk about "working with your mind and body." I would suggest that they're part and parcel of the same thing. You can't have one without the other. So who's internal now, huh? WHO'S INTERNAL NOW?!?!???*




*I should probably stop posting late at night.
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Re: Sun Taiji Form

Postby Bao on Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:39 pm

How do you know what isn't "internal" when you haven't defined what internal is? What are the skills that are to be reached by this phantom "it" that so-called external arts don't have? Until you can clarify those things, you really haven't said anything.

As an aside, you talk about "working with your mind and body." I would suggest that they're part and parcel of the same thing. You can't have one without the other. So who's internal now, huh? WHO'S INTERNAL NOW?!?!???*


You sincerely don’t care about what I mean as you continue arguing about the nonsense word “internal”. Then if you don’t care or don’t even want to try to understand my POV, please don’t read this post further and please don’t reply again.

Again: I don’t [fxcking] care. Why would I care? And again, I am interested about the practical practice, how you, (or rather how I,) practice and the results it lead to. I don’t care if you call Yang or Chen Tai Chi, or Shaolin, or BJJ or Western Boxing Internal, how does it matter? How does it matter if ”they're part and parcel of the same thing”? Does it mean that all individual practitioners of arts within the same parcel practice diligently and in the most efficient way possible? Or that they know the heck what they are doing? There are tons of Tai Chi practitioners who don’t know wtf they are doing. They won’t improve or understand better regardless what you call it.

And BTW, what people appreciate with so called internal practice is very different, people have different goals, want to achieve different things. Personally, I do appreciate practitioners from various disciplines who moves with awareness. For instance, I know a couple of girls who have practiced dancing from a very small age. They move incredibly beautiful in daily life, they have that type of body awareness deeply rooted within themselves. That’s a real life skill I can appreciate in boxers and athletes as well. I can also see Tai Chi practitioners who looks unbalanced (floats), not very coordinated and initiates movements with the hands instead of from the core. How you label their type of practice won’t make them better.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sun Taiji Form

Postby Sean on Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:28 am

Hey Michael,

Your sword practice sounds great!
Training the basics and playing around with them in controlled sparring situations is the best way to learn in my opinion.
And as you said, it's great fun as well!
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Re: Sun Taiji Form

Postby BruceP on Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:18 am

Bhassler wrote:
I think I have an inkling of what you're talking about. I've done push hands where I've set people up and thrown them out (or down, or whatever), and I've done it where a trained response has happened even ahead of conscious thought to deal with people. A few times, though, I've thrown people out by doing something I've never done before. It's not the same action, but it feels kind of how a horse shudders to throw off flies-- it's like the intent of "OFF" just manifests itself and does what it does (and does it well). Is that what you're talking about?

In my experience, that's a different manifestation of the skills and attributes that have been built through "premeditated" practice. They transcend the original context of the practice in how they appear, but are still using the same baseline skills and physics. I may be talking about something totally different than you, though. I'm sure if we ever met in person we could sort it out in a couple of minutes. I'll bring the beer, you bring the brains....


I think we're talking about the same thing with your example of the spontaneous response of "OFF".

The whole model of isolating and training intent is built on a framework of neutrality. That is, the absence of context or expectation of performance, or even predefinition of what the body is doing. Solo practice that throws off the encumberances of 'proper method' and labels/styles can dispense with forms and other exercises which are often mistaken as gateways to the development of internal 'skill'. Nine Temple Exercises, qigong and Tai Chi form are the foundations of body-method, but they won't necessarily impart or develop the energetics of intent which cultivate the ability to manifest that "OFF" response.

Those solo practices can be helpful in integrating wave response and initialization as long as the mind isn't fixed on whatever form the exercise follows.

I was referring to the elevated platform/plank exercise in my previous post in illustrating why/how the wave is different. The stasis work I've written about in the past, of arresting initialization, is also something anyone can play with to gain an appreciation for how beginnings of the wave differs.
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Re: Sun Taiji Form

Postby BruceP on Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:19 pm

Sean wrote:
I've been absent from this board for quite some time so I've missed this. Could you explain or provide a link to your explanation of wave response and initialization?

And could you also explain what you mean by initializing waves "which are devoid of any performance-based context?"

Thanks.


Hi, Sean

I don't know what more I could write than what's already been discussed in these threads:

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... b227667e18

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... b227667e18
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Re: Sun Taiji Form

Postby Sean on Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:36 am

BruceP,

Thank you. Very, very interesting stuff there. It will take time to go through and digest.
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