Contextualizing the Martial body
Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:56 pm
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Giles wrote:From my viewpoint, one possible next stage in the application of these principles to grappling would be that at the moment the other guy graps hold of you, he doesn't actually feel he 'bounces off the wall' at all - although that is already very good. Instead, that you keep your described body qualities but when his hands touch you, your body changes slightly under his force so that his structure is already getting distorted and broken and falling without him even feeling your 'wall'. Which is still there of course, but hidden at that moment. Call it "yielding" if you like, but then nothing to do with dodging or avoiding or retreating.
I'm sure you've felt that kind of thing with the good guys you've trained with and probably you can do it yourself. So I'm not aiming to be a know-all, just sharing thoughts.
Kit Leblanc on November 06, 2006 wrote:After Seminar report:
I had the opportunity (finally!) to meet Tim (Cartmell) in person and train with him in Seattle this weekend. . . .
We then practiced several "generic" throws based on Taiji principles. I found these very interesting, as they were analogous to judo throws but with a different entry and control (and without a gi). He stressed that internal throws in general do not rely on what can be termed kuzushi per se, and are not based on disrupting the attackers balance, rather they are based on disrupting the attacker's structure, and twisting him into the ground to his dead angle based on how his structure has been changed. Sticking with the whole body is critical in this aspect. (BJJ folks should start seeing the connections right about here...)
Samurai Jack on 10-11-2006 wrote:Water Dragon wrote:Shuai Chiao doesn't use kuzushi in the same way that Judo does. There are a lot of similarities, because they're both throwing arts. . . . It's a more subtle way of breaking someone's structre. When Shuai Chiao gets a grip, it will yank you all over the place until you lose your root. Two different means to the same end.
Kuzushi is actually very similar to Tui Shou in concept.
From my viewpoint, one possible next stage in the application of these principles to grappling would be that at the moment the other guy graps hold of you, he doesn't actually feel he 'bounces off the wall' at all - although that is already very good. Instead, that you keep your described body qualities but when his hands touch you, your body changes slightly under his force so that his structure is already getting distorted and broken and falling without him even feeling your 'wall'. Which is still there of course, but hidden at that moment. Call it "yielding" if you like, but then nothing to do with dodging or avoiding or retreating.
I'm sure you've felt that kind of thing with the good guys you've trained with and probably you can do it yourself. So I'm not aiming to be a know-all, just sharing thoughts.
I think of "kuzushi" in judo more as borrowing an opponent's force, rather than "resisting" it. Push and pull, rather than just push.
middleway wrote:Thanks everyone
Hi Giles, Firstly thank you for the kind words.Giles wrote:From my viewpoint, one possible next stage in the application of these principles to grappling would be that at the moment the other guy graps hold of you, he doesn't actually feel he 'bounces off the wall' at all - although that is already very good. Instead, that you keep your described body qualities but when his hands touch you, your body changes slightly under his force so that his structure is already getting distorted and broken and falling without him even feeling your 'wall'. Which is still there of course, but hidden at that moment. Call it "yielding" if you like, but then nothing to do with dodging or avoiding or retreating.
I'm sure you've felt that kind of thing with the good guys you've trained with and probably you can do it yourself. So I'm not aiming to be a know-all, just sharing thoughts.
Absolutely That is definitively the next stage. I call that process 'pairing' and it is linked to the 'SpiralBody' in what i teach, it is like someone touching a turning wheel or a spinning ball. This is very useful with much larger opponents, I have filmed a little of that sort of work too but it is very difficult to see without extending it to make it very big, more contrived and less effective. I am going to try to re-do it in a better way in the coming week or so.marvin8 wrote:Those were my thoughts, too. I think of "kuzushi" in judo more as borrowing an opponent's force, rather than "resisting" it. Push and pull, rather than just push.
Kuzushi in Judo as i understand it is the combination of 'leading to the off balance points' and 'distorting the structure' the first 2 of the 3 pillars of throws and take downs that i describe.
middleway wrote:This is a beautiful explanation from Neil Adams.
I was agreeing with exactly what Giles wrote (in response to your given scenario: opponent already applying force) which I highlighted in red. As Giles said (paraphrase), when the opponent pushes you can pull (yield)—using the opponent's own force against himself rather than be heavy/stable/wall (resisting). It appeared you were handling the opponent's force more like shuai chiao than taiji, as the quotes I posted from others explained.
@ 3:45 of the OP video, what is the difference between your kuzushi and Neil's'?
rather they are based on disrupting the attacker's structure, and twisting him into the ground
rather they are based on disrupting the attacker's structure, and twisting him into the ground