the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Thanks LittlePanda,

For context this is the 3rd video in a short series on how body method development relates to useful attributes for Grappling.

The first 2 dealing with how posture and connection help us to inhibit the ability to be distorted or led off balance, again within a grappling context.

To be very clear this is NOT 'anti throw' work. You will still get thrown by good Judoka etc. However, Heaviness, trained maintenance of alignments and whole body connection are good, first line of defense.

Here are the first 2 parts:





I am planning to upload a Randori session (free grappling) with my commentary over the top in the next few days. Partners are (hopefully) our Gym wrestling coach (105Kgs) and a couple of the bigger guys from the Grappling classes.

My partner for these videos is a guy who was basically training full time in BJJ and has had 1 MMA fight which he won. He has won a number of titles in BJJ, both in weight and absolute divisions. He is an extra-ordinarily strong guy who outweighs me by about 10kgs / 23lbs and is 17 years younger. I selected him as a partner for his high level of athleticism.

This is nothing new under the sun and shouldn't be viewed as particularly 'internal'.

thanks.
Chris.

Hi Chris,

Most of the IP demos you see the teacher pushing the student and the student hopping around like a bird. But your videos showed the internal principles like stability and not bending at the waist to resist your opponent while grappling. Hope to see more stuff like these and thanks for the video

Thank you mate The randori video will be a truer representation of this stuff in free exchange.

Hi Chris,
I really like your approach in these videos. I know that you have broad experience in life and in various arts, not only "internal" stuff, but from my tai chi-ish perspective I can certainly recognise elements from "internal" approaches in this grappling context. The way you explain, formulate and show your interpretations of some of the basic principles is wonderfully clear and practical. Your own terminology; established principles. "Basic" is not at all meant in a derogatory way here - the basics are always the most important, and in practice usually the most difficult as well. In the Part 2 vid it's great that at the end (3:30) you show the counter to the throw as well, not just stopping the thrower but using your structure to break his at the moment of the throw and dropping him to the ground. During the previous minute of viewing I was really hoping something like that would come...

From my viewpoint, one possible next stage in the application of these principles to grappling would be that at the moment the other guy graps hold of you, he doesn't actually feel he 'bounces off the wall' at all - although that is already very good. Instead, that you keep your described body qualities but when his hands touch you, your body changes slightly under his force so that his structure is already getting distorted and broken and falling without him even feeling your 'wall'. Which is still there of course, but hidden at that moment. Call it "yielding" if you like, but then nothing to do with dodging or avoiding or retreating.
I'm sure you've felt that kind of thing with the good guys you've trained with and probably you can do it yourself. So I'm not aiming to be a know-all, just sharing thoughts.

Giles wrote:From my viewpoint, one possible next stage in the application of these principles to grappling would be that at the moment the other guy graps hold of you, he doesn't actually feel he 'bounces off the wall' at all - although that is already very good. Instead, that you keep your described body qualities but when his hands touch you, your body changes slightly under his force so that his structure is already getting distorted and broken and falling without him even feeling your 'wall'. Which is still there of course, but hidden at that moment. Call it "yielding" if you like, but then nothing to do with dodging or avoiding or retreating.
I'm sure you've felt that kind of thing with the good guys you've trained with and probably you can do it yourself. So I'm not aiming to be a know-all, just sharing thoughts.

Those were my thoughts, too. I think of "kuzushi" in judo more as borrowing an opponent's force, rather than "resisting" it. Push and pull, rather than just push.

Some other forum comments on the difference between shuai chiao and judo.

Excerpt from "Tim Cartmell's first visit to Seattle WA:"

Kit Leblanc on November 06, 2006 wrote:After Seminar report:

I had the opportunity (finally!) to meet Tim (Cartmell) in person and train with him in Seattle this weekend. . . .

We then practiced several "generic" throws based on Taiji principles. I found these very interesting, as they were analogous to judo throws but with a different entry and control (and without a gi). He stressed that internal throws in general do not rely on what can be termed kuzushi per se, and are not based on disrupting the attackers balance, rather they are based on disrupting the attacker's structure, and twisting him into the ground to his dead angle based on how his structure has been changed. Sticking with the whole body is critical in this aspect. (BJJ folks should start seeing the connections right about here...)

Excerpts from "What's kuzushi in Chinese?"

Samurai Jack on 10-11-2006 wrote:

Water Dragon wrote:Shuai Chiao doesn't use kuzushi in the same way that Judo does. There are a lot of similarities, because they're both throwing arts. . . . It's a more subtle way of breaking someone's structre. When Shuai Chiao gets a grip, it will yank you all over the place until you lose your root. Two different means to the same end.

Kuzushi is actually very similar to Tui Shou in concept.

really enjoyed the vids man

Nice work and presentation, Chris!

Thanks everyone

Hi Giles, Firstly thank you for the kind words.

From my viewpoint, one possible next stage in the application of these principles to grappling would be that at the moment the other guy graps hold of you, he doesn't actually feel he 'bounces off the wall' at all - although that is already very good. Instead, that you keep your described body qualities but when his hands touch you, your body changes slightly under his force so that his structure is already getting distorted and broken and falling without him even feeling your 'wall'. Which is still there of course, but hidden at that moment. Call it "yielding" if you like, but then nothing to do with dodging or avoiding or retreating.
I'm sure you've felt that kind of thing with the good guys you've trained with and probably you can do it yourself. So I'm not aiming to be a know-all, just sharing thoughts.

Absolutely That is definitively the next stage. I call that process 'pairing' and it is linked to the 'SpiralBody' in what i teach, it is like someone touching a turning wheel or a spinning ball. This is very useful with much larger opponents, I have filmed a little of that sort of work too but it is very difficult to see without extending it to make it very big, more contrived and less effective. I am going to try to re-do it in a better way in the coming week or so.

I think of "kuzushi" in judo more as borrowing an opponent's force, rather than "resisting" it. Push and pull, rather than just push.

Kuzushi in Judo as i understand it is the combination of 'leading to the off balance points' and 'distorting the structure' the first 2 of the 3 pillars of throws and take downs that i describe.

This is a beautiful explanation from Neil Adams.



Thank you all for the positive feedback. These are the first videos in the series. Upcoming are videos on various Ground situations, applying the connected body to a basic arm bar for instance, some Randori where i demonstrate the shield concept in free exchange with large partners. Then i will be looking at agility, fluidity and in later videos, again that will all be funneled through the lens of free exchange.

happy training

Chris.

middleway wrote:Thanks everyone

Hi Giles, Firstly thank you for the kind words.

Giles wrote:From my viewpoint, one possible next stage in the application of these principles to grappling would be that at the moment the other guy graps hold of you, he doesn't actually feel he 'bounces off the wall' at all - although that is already very good. Instead, that you keep your described body qualities but when his hands touch you, your body changes slightly under his force so that his structure is already getting distorted and broken and falling without him even feeling your 'wall'. Which is still there of course, but hidden at that moment. Call it "yielding" if you like, but then nothing to do with dodging or avoiding or retreating.
I'm sure you've felt that kind of thing with the good guys you've trained with and probably you can do it yourself. So I'm not aiming to be a know-all, just sharing thoughts.

Absolutely That is definitively the next stage. I call that process 'pairing' and it is linked to the 'SpiralBody' in what i teach, it is like someone touching a turning wheel or a spinning ball. This is very useful with much larger opponents, I have filmed a little of that sort of work too but it is very difficult to see without extending it to make it very big, more contrived and less effective. I am going to try to re-do it in a better way in the coming week or so.

marvin8 wrote:Those were my thoughts, too. I think of "kuzushi" in judo more as borrowing an opponent's force, rather than "resisting" it. Push and pull, rather than just push.

Kuzushi in Judo as i understand it is the combination of 'leading to the off balance points' and 'distorting the structure' the first 2 of the 3 pillars of throws and take downs that i describe.

I was agreeing with exactly what Giles wrote (in response to your given scenario: opponent already applying force) which I highlighted in red. As Giles said (paraphrase), when the opponent pushes you can pull (yield)—using the opponent's own force against himself rather than be heavy/stable/wall (resisting). It appeared you were handling the opponent's force more like shuai chiao than taiji, as the quotes I posted from others explained.

middleway wrote:This is a beautiful explanation from Neil Adams.

@ 3:45 of the OP video, what is the difference between your kuzushi and Neil's'?

I was agreeing with exactly what Giles wrote (in response to your given scenario: opponent already applying force) which I highlighted in red. As Giles said (paraphrase), when the opponent pushes you can pull (yield)—using the opponent's own force against himself rather than be heavy/stable/wall (resisting). It appeared you were handling the opponent's force more like shuai chiao than taiji, as the quotes I posted from others explained.

Oh yes i know, i was just commenting with a further word on Judo Kuzushi.

@ 3:45 of the OP video, what is the difference between your kuzushi and Neil's'?

Probably that Neils is far more effective!

But really i would say the primary difference is in how my body is used. Externally they both look similar, however, I am more concerned with twisting myself while in contact with the partner, Neils Version is a manipulation of the partner directly, usingstepping & direction with this grips.

If you put the cursor of your mouse on the centre of my stomach at 3.45 you will note it only moves horizontally in rotation,rather than towards the direction of off balance (eventually i step to catch the partners weight of course). Neil is stepping in the direction of the off balancing action to add body mass to the movement and direction.

This twisting can produce the effect you describe where by the partner feels they are twisted into the floor rather than led into a throw.

rather they are based on disrupting the attacker's structure, and twisting him into the ground

It is certainly not my contention that one is better than the other and I actually use both approaches to off balancing depending on circumstance, my position and the size of the partner.

Many thanks
Chris.

rather they are based on disrupting the attacker's structure, and twisting him into the ground

You can either use his mass as a whole, putting your opponent’s center of balance on the edge of his balance point. This is unbalancing. If his center of mass goes outside his balance point he will lose his balance and try to regain it. So the key is to continue doing an action while he is unbalanced but is still remaining on one spot.

Or you can separate his top from his lower half, twisting or bending him while his feet are stable. This is usually done by pulling or twisting the upper body while letting him stay stable. The advantage with this method is that you don’t need to be concerned with the timing of flowing the unbalancing of the feet into a finishing move.

Both methods are equally “internal”. IME, Baguazhang tends to use the twisting or bending method more than Taijiquan which tend to focus more on unbalancing and doing things from here. I suspect that Mr Cartmell has learned most of his throwing skills from Baguazhang and this is probably why he emphasize “twisting”.

Oh, and BTW, good videos.

New video on Randori

thanks for posting LP.

I explain the context of this one in the video, but to re-iterate, I was only trying to demonstrate the 'shield' concept in this video. Partners were unaware of my goal of maintining heavy stable connected structure so were attacking honestly. All partners outweigh me by at least 20Kgs approx 45lbs.

Randori - Part 2 will be focused on off balancing - and Part 3 - will be just completely free grappling. They will be dropping every couple of weeks.

thanks.

hi chris,

Interesting video. Good to see you maintaining your balance while sparring. What interested me was that there was very little breaking of structure at the waist. However it is comparitively easier to keep your structure/balance when defending than when attacking. So yes I'm looking forward to part 2 and 3 of your video where you go for free sparring.