PERSPECTIVE: Reality of Wrist Locks

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Re: PERSPECTIVE: Reality of Wrist Locks

Postby marvin8 on Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:24 pm

windwalker wrote:Thought it was a good clip illustrating usage in a live setting.

He waited, didn't want to do anything...allowed the other to present the right time,,,didn't force it...

Regarding control...IMO he controlled the others body through the limb.

The choice he had, brake , or throw.


By controlling the whole body ie short throw, the other is unable to do anything,
decisively neutralized in way that prevents any type of counter.

He yielded him into emptiness (push/pull) rather than resist or break the flow:
ockbutt drown 2 years ago wrote:Hoodie: "I said what is up with you?"
Suit: "What?"
Hoodie: "Why did you bump into me?"
Suit: "Sorry."
Hoodie: "You think you can say sorry and it will end?" x2 Pushes suit
Suit: "I already said 'I'm sorry' just now."
Hoodie: "You said one 'I'm sorry' and that's it?"
Suit: "What do you want?"
Hoodie: "You say one 'I'm sorry' and you think that's it?
Suit: "Correct."
Hoodie: "F*ck" Pushes suit again..
Hoodie: ahhhh ahhh.ahhh:

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Re: PERSPECTIVE: Reality of Wrist Locks

Postby GrahamB on Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:40 am

I still think that clip is fake. Looks staged to me.

Plus, tacticaly it's terrible - he let him get up. He had the advantage and lost it. Then the clip conveniently ends, and also conveniently got recorded.

Hmmm...
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Re: PERSPECTIVE: Reality of Wrist Locks

Postby Bao on Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:15 am

Plus, tacticaly it's terrible - he let him get up. He had the advantage and lost it.


In real life underdogs tend to not try their luck a second time.

I thought that I shouldn’t comment on if the clip is genuine or fake. But I really don’t know. Personally, if I would stage a similar episode I wouldn’t do it in such a small area with lots of people around me. It would be dangerous for the person dragged down as well as for bystanders. You need to have a certain amount of control of the surroundings to do this kind of thing. Never know what could happen. Luck doesn’t always follow your way.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PERSPECTIVE: Reality of Wrist Locks

Postby windwalker on Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:54 am

GrahamB wrote:I still think that clip is fake. Looks staged to me.

Plus, tacticaly it's terrible - he let him get up. He had the advantage and lost it. Then the clip conveniently ends, and also conveniently got recorded.

Hmmm...


The clip has been around for a while one would expect if it was staged or faked at some point it would have been mentioned.

"He let him get up". As opposed to what?

The rollback if that's what he used was done from inside, the guy having to adjust to allow for the throw.

A lot of skill to be able to do that, taking the attackers feet off the ground.

Done a little differently or with a different intention it could have resulted in a break at the wrist or elbow.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:09 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: PERSPECTIVE: Reality of Wrist Locks

Postby yeniseri on Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:12 pm

One can never apply locks cold from the gitgo! It just never happen
Here are some scenarios from Taiwan Police on real world application where people will be resistant and uncooperative when you try to apprehend.
Aikido has the same problem where people just apply locks and expect results and they will be up shits' creek when it does not work hence the use of atemi (implied or otherwise to project an action) for result

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Re: PERSPECTIVE: Reality of Wrist Locks

Postby marvin8 on Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:07 am

Excerpts from "WUSHU WATCH: WHY AREN'T PEOPLE GETTING THROWN AROUND BY THE WRIST IN MMA?"
Jack Slack on Sep 23 2016 wrote:
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If you have practiced any kind of traditional martial art you will be familiar with kote-gaeshi, the 'returning wrist' throw. Aikido legend, Gozo Shioda describes the technique in two movements: turning the wrist over and to the outside so that the elbow is bent inwards, and 'cutting down and over' with the other hand in order to unbalance him. Rather than a large, circular motion, Shioda advises that you try to contain the turning of the wrist in front of your stomach.

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The issue, of course, is that you are attempting to manipulate one of the opponent's hands with just one of your own. You are trying to force the opponent's shoulder, elbow and wrist into a weak alignment by pushing through a similar motion. You are not going to simply turn someone's hand over against their will from a static position and if you start moving your feet to make it easier, they are going to move theirs too. Furthermore, the correct grip to apply enough torque on the kote-gaeshi is with the thumb reaching all the way over to the knuckle of the opponent's little finger.

In effective wrist control, which is difficult enough to achieve, a grappler is creating a bracelet on the opponent and the opponent's hand—being wider than their wrist—cannot slide out as easily. To remove wrist control the opponent's hand must be held in place, or struck away, while the trapped wrist is cut or circled through the gap between the opponent's thumb and middle finger. Now look at the enormous gap between the thumb and fingers in the control above. Any decent grappler, when gripped at the wrist, punches off the grip and retracts their arm if at all possible. Reaching all the way around the hand itself for Kote-gaeshi gives very little actual control. When you factor in sweat it becomes a nightmare. When you factor in resistance and a trained opponent, it—like so much else in aikido—becomes impossible.

At least, that is what this humble writer thought until downloading the career of the great Russian MMA pioneer, Volk Han.
As a master of sambo, Han's RINGS career was full of dives for the opponent's legs and kani-basami leg scissors takedown attempts into leg attacks. Comparing Han's dives for the legs from everywhere with Garry Tonon's attempts at the same against Rousimar Palhares is an interesting exercise. While watching a match that Han had with Kiyoshi Timura, the two were trading slappy strikes when suddenly out of nowhere, Han hit the kote-gaeshi! Followed by an even tastier and more extravagant double wrist lock takeover.

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But the waters are muddied by the fact that Han took part in plenty of pro wrestling bouts which were shoots and a lot of MMA matches which were works.
You never know where you stand with Volk Han. The whole thing seems too fantastic to be real, but equally he whips that wrist around to force Tamura over, something which you typically wouldn't do to someone you were co-operating with as it's pretty harsh on the wrist, elbow and shoulder. . . .

The case with kote-gaeshi seems to be that the principles and mechanics are sound, it is simply so difficult to apply against someone who is resisting to any degree. It could be the case that it is a technique which worked far better against the old fashioned wrist grabs which we imagine were commonplace in the days when the Japanese soldiering classes wore swords at their waist. Or it could be that the technique has always been practiced against unrealistically overcommitted lunges—but that is largely a phenomenon in Japanese ritualized martial arts and this same wrist attack can be found in Chinese manuals on chin na.

Externally rotating the wrist and shoulder is a powerful method for unbalancing the opponent in theory, unfortunately footwork and grips make it unreliable in real competition.
This is the same reason that you will never see the americana style armlock used as a takedown—which is how it originated—but it is a powerful submission when the arm can be isolated against the mat. Similarly the 'returning wrist' can be useful in situations where the opponent's feet aren't free to move. Particularly from closed guard. Every time we discuss wrist locks and Aikido we have to mention Claudio Calasans because he is able to change the opponent's positioning with manipulation of their wrists just as Aikido does in principle on the feet. . . .

But kote-gaeshi from the feet might not be so unreasonable in the future. It is the practice against zombie charges and static lapel grips which stunts the development of practical applications of traditional techniques. Two-on-one wrist control is becoming a more common part of the clinch fight as fighters begin to create distance with their heads in order to infight. Jon Jones, for instance, frequently graduates to a two-on-one wrist control after establishing a chest to chest clinch. He is also one of the most creative fighters in the UFC so a kote-gaeshi against an opponent with their back to the fence isn't completely out of the question!

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Jones' use of the two-on-one has saved him a lot of grief from right handed heavy hitters.

Certainly Jones' overhook americana crank in the clinch against both Teixeira and Cormier, and Shinya Aoki's successful use of a winding armbar in MMA are very encouraging. . . .
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Re: PERSPECTIVE: Reality of Wrist Locks

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:00 pm

I remember years ago a security guard and professional karate full contact fighter came to train with me
I was showing needle at sea bottom as a wrist lock
His response was it wouldn't work on him
We engaged and I threw a little kick to his groin he reacted and I dropped him with the wrist lock
He hit the floor so hard it took him time to get up
My response was there is a time and place for everything
I have a student with a ponytail is sparing it ends up in my hands on a regular basis,usually followed by a neck crank
It is the same with wrist locks
When they present themselves use them
When they don't revert to striking
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: PERSPECTIVE: Reality of Wrist Locks

Postby dspyrido on Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:41 pm

Been mentioned here but ti, da, shuai, na. Chinna instructors might teach moves in isolation (eg do a wrist lock) but with progress they should mix it up. No instructor I've had has said chinna should only be used in isolation but all have said if an opportunity presents itself apply it.

Example - one sifu's story was he was being shoved on the chest & threatened. He grabbed 2 fingers in each hand and partially tore the shovers hand in the middle. Wrist lock? Not really but an extreme example of chinna.

Also to note - in tournaments wrist locks are banned except at the top levels. Result - even top level guys will feel less comfortable using them. It's just conditioning.
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Re: PERSPECTIVE: Reality of Wrist Locks

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:59 pm

It's also worth noting that there are levels and differences in skill in terms of how qinna is applied.

IMO, low-level qinna rely mostly on pain-compliance and focus on applying single-directional pressure directly to the joint (e.g., finger locks against grabs taught in most self-defense 101 courses). This type of qinna can be learned quickly, but usually requires the element of surprise (and some luck) in order to be effective.

High-level qinna, on the other hand, contains 2 aspects. First, it involves the ability to unbalance and control the opponent's whole body through the point of contact, with pain-compliance being optional and secondary. Then there are techniques that combine qinna with subtle fajin and pressure point grabbing/striking to snap, break,tear, and dislocate joints/tendons/ligaments at the moment of contact.
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Re: PERSPECTIVE: Reality of Wrist Locks

Postby Bao on Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:59 am

C.J.W. wrote:It's also worth noting that there are levels and differences in skill in terms of how qinna is applied.

IMO, low-level qinna rely mostly on pain-compliance and focus on applying single-directional pressure directly to the joint (e.g., finger locks against grabs taught in most self-defense 101 courses). This type of qinna can be learned quickly, but usually requires the element of surprise (and some luck) in order to be effective.

High-level qinna, on the other hand, contains 2 aspects. First, it involves the ability to unbalance and control the opponent's whole body through the point of contact, with pain-compliance being optional and secondary.


For joint manipulation, there's a big difference of feeling of pain of average or skilful use of qinna. Mostly, students in various schools, are taught a less effective version with "wrong" angles of pressure. But for the correct use of leverage and correct angles no additional breaking of balance or other types of control is necessary. The pain is a surprise enough and no additional balance control or any luck necessary, only the correct knowledge is.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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