Taijiquan Striking

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Re: Taijiquan Striking

Postby Trick on Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:10 am

wdhc Taijiquan wrote:
As for the taiji tu comment... yin and yang. Yin is song, relaxed structure small yang. Yang is striking, with song small yin. There is the answer....


Yes, that could be the application within oneself. But with an opponent constantly shifting, one has to stop feeling within oneself
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Re: Taijiquan Striking

Postby Bao on Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:38 am

zrm wrote: I just feel that if you skip training the physically hitting something step altogether you will never learn how to do it in a relaxed manner it in practice. It is a practice that does not come naturally.


Yes, it doesn't come natural. There are maybe different ways of developing it and different ways to practice. The method and goal should be correct, the rest of it, hit or not hitting a bag doesn't matter. IMO.

wayne hansen wrote:I don’t know too many boxers who are not relaxed


Power = mass+speed. If you have built up a certain amount of mass around shoulders and back, you only need to relax for speed to build power. We others, thin weaklings who are too lazy to build up that kind of functional mass need another way, to learn how to connect and make use of the whole body in another way.

Trick wrote:Just go to a decent boxing gym, and you see that’s the criteria to do stingy heavy punching


Again, the way they do it suite them and their practice. There are other ways. You don't need to replace tai chi principles with something else to punch hard. You just need to practice the right way and learn how to not abandon your Tai Chi.

With an ‘opponent’ is to smoothly blend, Taiji is not clashing forces, or clashing with objects...that’s why it’s so difficult....Punching something is basic, we know from early age without any training...Taiji is as the set up. an “finish off” thing is something else......Yes I understand some TJQ guys desperately want to “keep up” an image with the new MMA.
Now I’ve just skimmed through that article in the Taiji,Xingyiquan, Aikido thread Grahame posted a while ago. The guy(police officer) tells how using is martial training to handle hooligans, does he tells how he punched and kicked them to submission, if I remember right he does not say any such...


Something here I do agree with very much. But it's more of a mind-set or attitude. The times I have been in real situations, I have actually never felt the need to hurt anyone. The mind-set you learn from this practice is firstly to restrain and control, not to make damage. If you feel that you are in control, you won't feel much threat and then there is no reason to punch someone or to "finish" someone if you don't really need to. Take down, throw, push away, keep close, control and restrain. Those options come much more natural than the Karateka mind-set to either mess someone up with punches or to run away.

It's easy to "think" about what you can or should do in a situation when your actions in your own fantasy doesn't need to face any kind of consequence. But when you are facing reality, everything gets much more complicated. What you do have consequences and you know that you need to face them. I have always felt that the Tai Chi way and mind-set makes much more sense (and actually works better) in the real world than any punch-and-kick-only-style or any kind of competitions practice. Today I am very happy that I haven't messed up anyone too badly and that no one has messed up me too badly. Real fighting is too unpredictable. No situation is worth getting into.

It’s nothing wrong to hit the bag, I love it, but it’s not Taiji


Again, I agree. "Hit the bag" is not Tai Chi. You must learn how to use Tai Chi principles hitting it. Then it's no longer "Hitting a bag", it becomes "using Tai Chi principles." It's relaxed, calm, no stress, no aggression, no tensing up either mind nor body. Just relaxed, connected whole body movement. ...But I didn't believe in it either before I started to learn and practice some real methods. Very few understand how to. First hand instruction is probably necessary.
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Re: Taijiquan Striking

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:00 am

Bao wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I don’t know too many boxers who are not relaxed


Power = mass+speed. If you have built up a certain amount of mass around shoulders and back, you only need to relax for speed to build power. We others, thin weaklings who are too lazy to build up that kind of functional mass need another way, to learn how to connect and make use of the whole body in another way.

Right, boxers "relax." However, they also "connect and make use of the whole body."

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:It’s nothing wrong to hit the bag, I love it, but it’s not Taiji


Again, I agree. "Hit the bag" is not Tai Chi. You must learn how to use Tai Chi principles hitting it. Then it's no longer "Hitting a bag", it becomes "using Tai Chi principles." It's relaxed, calm, no stress, no aggression, no tensing up either mind nor body. Just relaxed, connected whole body movement. ...But I didn't believe in it either before I started to learn and practice some real methods. Very few understand how to. First hand instruction is probably necessary.

Boxers use "relaxed, connected whole body movement" (e.g., whip, pulse, double pulse, etc.). What "other way" does tai chi "connect and make use of the whole body?"
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Re: Taijiquan Striking

Postby Trick on Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:56 am

Bao wrote:
With an ‘opponent’ is to smoothly blend, Taiji is not clashing forces, or clashing with objects...that’s why it’s so difficult....Punching something is basic, we know from early age without any training...Taiji is as the set up. an “finish off” thing is something else......Yes I understand some TJQ guys desperately want to “keep up” an image with the new MMA.
Now I’ve just skimmed through that article in the Taiji,Xingyiquan, Aikido thread Grahame posted a while ago. The guy(police officer) tells how using is martial training to handle hooligans, does he tells how he punched and kicked them to submission, if I remember right he does not say any such...


Something here I do agree with very much. But it's more of a mind-set or attitude. The times I have been in real situations, I have actually never felt the need to hurt anyone. The mind-set you learn from this practice is firstly to restrain and control, not to make damage. If you feel that you are in control, you won't feel much threat and then there is no reason to punch someone or to "finish" someone if you don't really need to. Take down, throw, push away, keep close, control and restrain. Those options come much more natural than the Karateka mind-set to either mess someone up with punches or to run away.

It's easy to "think" about what you can or should do in a situation when your actions in your own fantasy doesn't need to face any kind of consequence. But when you are facing reality, everything gets much more complicated. What you do have consequences and you know that you need to face them. I have always felt that the Tai Chi way and mind-set makes much more sense (and actually works better) in the real world than any punch-and-kick-only-style or any kind of competitions practice. Today I am very happy that I haven't messed up anyone too badly and that no one has messed up me too badly. Real fighting is too unpredictable. No situation is worth getting into.

It’s nothing wrong to hit the bag, I love it, but it’s not Taiji


Again, I agree. "Hit the bag" is not Tai Chi. You must learn how to use Tai Chi principles hitting it. Then it's no longer "Hitting a bag", it becomes "using Tai Chi principles." It's relaxed, calm, no stress, no aggression, no tensing up either mind nor body. Just relaxed, connected whole body movement. ...But I didn't believe in it either before I started to learn and practice some real methods. Very few understand how to. First hand instruction is probably necessary.

i think you summoned it up nicely here, exept for the bag thing 8-) The very spirit of the heavy bag is like its calling you over - 'hey you im hanging over here, come here lets see what you got, take your best shot' - Ok, sure there are strikes in Taijiquan, as we can see them in the taiji form, but they are not the kind that try to 'reach' an target, which is what the bag ask the striker to initially to do.....its almost as the bag hanging there relaxingly absorbing the best shots knows something about the way of Taiji 8-)
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Re: Taijiquan Striking

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:20 am

Trick wrote:
Bao wrote:
With an ‘opponent’ is to smoothly blend, Taiji is not clashing forces, or clashing with objects...that’s why it’s so difficult....Punching something is basic, we know from early age without any training...Taiji is as the set up. an “finish off” thing is something else......Yes I understand some TJQ guys desperately want to “keep up” an image with the new MMA.
Now I’ve just skimmed through that article in the Taiji,Xingyiquan, Aikido thread Grahame posted a while ago. The guy(police officer) tells how using is martial training to handle hooligans, does he tells how he punched and kicked them to submission, if I remember right he does not say any such...


Something here I do agree with very much. But it's more of a mind-set or attitude. The times I have been in real situations, I have actually never felt the need to hurt anyone. The mind-set you learn from this practice is firstly to restrain and control, not to make damage. If you feel that you are in control, you won't feel much threat and then there is no reason to punch someone or to "finish" someone if you don't really need to. Take down, throw, push away, keep close, control and restrain. Those options come much more natural than the Karateka mind-set to either mess someone up with punches or to run away.

It's easy to "think" about what you can or should do in a situation when your actions in your own fantasy doesn't need to face any kind of consequence. But when you are facing reality, everything gets much more complicated. What you do have consequences and you know that you need to face them. I have always felt that the Tai Chi way and mind-set makes much more sense (and actually works better) in the real world than any punch-and-kick-only-style or any kind of competitions practice. Today I am very happy that I haven't messed up anyone too badly and that no one has messed up me too badly. Real fighting is too unpredictable. No situation is worth getting into.

It’s nothing wrong to hit the bag, I love it, but it’s not Taiji


Again, I agree. "Hit the bag" is not Tai Chi. You must learn how to use Tai Chi principles hitting it. Then it's no longer "Hitting a bag", it becomes "using Tai Chi principles." It's relaxed, calm, no stress, no aggression, no tensing up either mind nor body. Just relaxed, connected whole body movement. ...But I didn't believe in it either before I started to learn and practice some real methods. Very few understand how to. First hand instruction is probably necessary.

i think you summoned it up nicely here, exept for the bag thing 8-) The very spirit of the heavy bag is like its calling you over - 'hey you im hanging over here, come here lets see what you got, take your best shot' - Ok, sure there are strikes in Taijiquan, as we can see them in the taiji form, but they are not the kind that try to 'reach' an target, which is what the bag ask the striker to initially to do.....its almost as the bag hanging there relaxingly absorbing the best shots knows something about the way of Taiji 8-)

Then just swing the bag and let it come to you or move around it using your imagination.
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Re: Taijiquan Striking

Postby charles on Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:34 am

Bao wrote:Power = mass+speed. If you have built up a certain amount of mass around shoulders and back, you only need to relax for speed to build power. We others, thin weaklings who are too lazy to build up that kind of functional mass need another way, to learn how to connect and make use of the whole body in another way.


No, it isn't. Momentum is mass x velocity. https://www.dummies.com/education/scien ... n-physics/ "Power" is something else.

I point this out not to be pedantic, but that it is an important distinction. In may martial arts, a strong focus is maximizing the momentum of a strike - quickly moving a mass into a target. That mass can be one's fist, one's arm, one's shoulder, or one's whole body. It can be a "snap" of the hips to propel a target (e.g. fist) into an opponent or it can be to shift one's entire weight behind a target, or yet a different mechanism.

As I was taught, generating as much momentum as possible to strike isn't Taijiquan's primary strategy. As I was taught, it was largely about leverage, using the proverbial 4 oz to deflect 1000 lb. A few times, I met a skilled Yang stylist who said that hitting someone was low-level skill. He argued, why would I bother hitting someone if I can completely control him? He could: as soon as anyone touched him, one lost all control. He'd toy with them, moving them around like a rag doll, until he allowed them to gently fall to the ground. Sure, striking has its place in the arsenal, but the (traditional) goal of Taijiquan is not about striking a stable opponent with as much "oomph" ("power"/force/momentum) as one can develop. Hence, traditionally, practitioners didn't spend great amounts of time hitting inanimate objects.
Last edited by charles on Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taijiquan Striking

Postby Bao on Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:53 am

marvin8 wrote:What "other way" does tai chi "connect and make use of the whole body?"


Boxers seem to have a more dynamic balance. We use the centerline differently and don’t “fall” into the punch the same way as often seen. And I’ve never heard that Boxers coordinate the impact of a blow by tapping the big toe down into the ground. And many Chen stylists for instance like to initiate a movement from the dantian. Also something I haven’t heard from Western boxers.

Trick wrote:The very spirit of the heavy bag is like its calling you over - 'hey you im hanging over here, come here lets see what you got, take your best shot' - Ok, sure there are strikes in Taijiquan, as we can see them in the taiji form, but they are not the kind that try to 'reach' an target, which is what the bag ask the striker to initially to do.....its almost as the bag hanging there relaxingly absorbing the best shots knows something about the way of Taiji 8-)


I do understand your point. This is a problem. The natural instinct is to reach out. Keeping the integrity of the tai chi body is very hard. When you practice you need do totally forget that there is a target and focus solely on mechanics and movement. As soon as you try to “do” something you have already lost it. Very strange, you really need to experience the difference to believe it.

charles wrote:No, it isn't. Momentum is mass x velocity. https://www.dummies.com/education/scien ... n-physics/ "Power" is something else.
I point this out not to be pedantic, but that it is an important distinction.


Thanks. Yes, an important difference.

A few times, I met a skilled Yang stylist who said that hitting someone was low-level skill. He argued, why would I bother hitting someone if I can completely control him? He could: as soon as anyone touched him, one lost all control. He'd toy with them, moving them around like a rag doll, until he allowed them to gently fall to the ground. Sure, striking has its place in the arsenal, but the (traditional) goal of Taijiquan is not about striking a stable opponent with as much "oomph" ("power"/force/momentum) as one can develop. Hence, traditionally, practitioners didn't spend great amounts of time hitting inanimate objects.


Exactly, I wholeheartedly agree. This is very similar to my own experience as I stated in another post above.
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Re: Taijiquan Striking

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:54 pm

Sorry I'm late in getting back to this
Yes the bag work was thru my Malaysian yang school but also thru my HK Wu school
Yes there were a lot of teachers doing tai chi in Malaysia from hard styles
That was because they had been bested by the tai chi guys
Tai chi is based on full body methods(feet,thighs, waist,hands)
I would like to know when Chen introduced bag training was it there in the early days
It matters little when bag training came in as long as it is done without forfeiting tai chi principles
Likewise it is not a necessity form and pushing training can I still the ability to hit a target
I have known people who had no fight training who getting into a fight for the first time have messed up their attacker
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Re: Taijiquan Striking

Postby Trick on Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:31 am

marvin8 wrote:
Trick wrote:i think you summoned it up nicely here, exept for the bag thing 8-) The very spirit of the heavy bag is like its calling you over - 'hey you im hanging over here, come here lets see what you got, take your best shot' - Ok, sure there are strikes in Taijiquan, as we can see them in the taiji form, but they are not the kind that try to 'reach' an target, which is what the bag ask the striker to initially to do.....its almost as the bag hanging there relaxingly absorbing the best shots knows something about the way of Taiji 8-)

Then just swing the bag and let it come to you or move around it using your imagination.

i wrote in a previous post, there are ways to work the bag that would be more in the taiji'ish spirit
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Re: Taijiquan Striking

Postby Trick on Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:35 am

charles wrote:
Bao wrote:Power = mass+speed. If you have built up a certain amount of mass around shoulders and back, you only need to relax for speed to build power. We others, thin weaklings who are too lazy to build up that kind of functional mass need another way, to learn how to connect and make use of the whole body in another way.


No, it isn't. Momentum is mass x velocity. https://www.dummies.com/education/scien ... n-physics/ "Power" is something else.

I point this out not to be pedantic, but that it is an important distinction. In may martial arts, a strong focus is maximizing the momentum of a strike - quickly moving a mass into a target. That mass can be one's fist, one's arm, one's shoulder, or one's whole body. It can be a "snap" of the hips to propel a target (e.g. fist) into an opponent or it can be to shift one's entire weight behind a target, or yet a different mechanism.

As I was taught, generating as much momentum as possible to strike isn't Taijiquan's primary strategy. As I was taught, it was largely about leverage, using the proverbial 4 oz to deflect 1000 lb. A few times, I met a skilled Yang stylist who said that hitting someone was low-level skill. He argued, why would I bother hitting someone if I can completely control him? He could: as soon as anyone touched him, one lost all control. He'd toy with them, moving them around like a rag doll, until he allowed them to gently fall to the ground. Sure, striking has its place in the arsenal, but the (traditional) goal of Taijiquan is not about striking a stable opponent with as much "oomph" ("power"/force/momentum) as one can develop. Hence, traditionally, practitioners didn't spend great amounts of time hitting inanimate objects.

thanks!
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Re: Taijiquan Striking

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:48 am

My view on IMA striking is that a strike should be a push, and a push should also be a strike. In other words, a strike should also have the quality of a subtle push that is able to connect, control, and upset the opponent's center of balance through the point of contact.

In order to develop this type of quality in striking, I personally favor the use of of hard, immovable objects (e.g., a solid wall or a wooden dummy) or hard objects with a slight "give" (e.g., a small- to medium-sized tree) -- as opposed to bags.
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Re: Taijiquan Striking

Postby Trick on Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:08 am

wayne hansen wrote:Sorry I'm late in getting back to this
Yes the bag work was thru my Malaysian yang school but also thru my HK Wu school
Yes there were a lot of teachers doing tai chi in Malaysia from hard styles
That was because they had been bested by the tai chi guys

one of my karate teachers(back in the days) is an malaysian. since he moved to sweden in the late 70's he regularly go back to malaysia and while there he trains Taiji(ZMQ) his teacher a senior gong fu master(probably passed away by now) who consider his Wuzhuquan is for combat and taiji for health.......To make this a more strange little story, my karate teacher when it comes to TJQ he teach the Earl Montague(spelling?)-tjq
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Re: Taijiquan Striking

Postby Trick on Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:15 am

C.J.W. wrote:My view on IMA striking is that a strike should be a push, and a push should also be a strike. In other words, a strike should also have the quality of a subtle push that is able to connect, control, and upset the opponent's center of balance through the point of contact.

In order to develop this type of quality in striking, I personally favor the use of of hard, immovable objects (e.g., a solid wall or a wooden dummy) or hard objects with a slight "give" (e.g., a small- to medium-sized tree) -- as opposed to bags.

sumo wrestlers seem to follow this way
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Re: Taijiquan Striking

Postby robert on Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:27 am

C.J.W. wrote:My view on IMA striking is that a strike should be a push, and a push should also be a strike. In other words, a strike should also have the quality of a subtle push that is able to connect, control, and upset the opponent's center of balance through the point of contact.

I think the body mechanics are similar for a push and punch in taiji, but punches, either internal or external, can have different qualities. A punch can be explosive or heavy. An explosive punch is fast and tends to cut, tear, and break bones and a heavy punch is a little slower and tends to create more motion in the opponent.

How is force related to momentum?

Momentum measures the 'motion content' of an object, and is based on the product of an object's mass and velocity. Momentum doubles, for example, when velocity doubles. Similarly, if two objects are moving with the same velocity, one with twice the mass of the other also has twice the momentum.

Force, on the other hand, is the push or pull that is applied to an object to CHANGE its momentum. Newton's second law of motion defines force as the product of mass times ACCELERATION (vs. velocity). Since acceleration is the change in velocity divided by time, you can connect the two concepts with the following relationship:

force = mass x (velocity / time) = (mass x velocity) / time = momentum / time

Multiplying both sides of this equation by time:

force x time = momentum

To answer your original question, then, the difference between force and momentum is time. Knowing the amount of force and the length of time that force is applied to an object will tell you the resulting change in its momentum.
Answered by: Paul Walorski, B.A., Part-time Physics Instructor

https://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae462.cfm

If you think of momentum as force x time, a push has a high time value and a lower force value, a heavy punch has a higher force value and lower time value than a push and an explosive punch has a higher force value and lower time value than a heavy punch. As the force increases the human body tends to deform more - as force increases the body deforms more and moves less in space.

[Edit] People describe punches differently - an explosive punch can be described as punching into and a heavy punch as punching through.

That's my take on it.
Last edited by robert on Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taijiquan Striking

Postby charles on Sat Nov 02, 2019 4:32 pm

robert wrote:How is force related to momentum?

Momentum measures the 'motion content' of an object, and is based on the product of an object's mass and velocity. Momentum doubles, for example, when velocity doubles. Similarly, if two objects are moving with the same velocity, one with twice the mass of the other also has twice the momentum.

Force, on the other hand, is the push or pull that is applied to an object to CHANGE its momentum. Newton's second law of motion defines force as the product of mass times ACCELERATION (vs. velocity). Since acceleration is the change in velocity divided by time, you can connect the two concepts with the following relationship:

force = mass x (velocity / time) = (mass x velocity) / time = momentum / time

Multiplying both sides of this equation by time:

force x time = momentum

To answer your original question, then, the difference between force and momentum is time. Knowing the amount of force and the length of time that force is applied to an object will tell you the resulting change in its momentum.
Answered by: Paul Walorski, B.A., Part-time Physics Instructor

https://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae462.cfm


I don't want to drift too far into the weeds, but the above description is somewhat misleading. force x time is defined as "impulse". Impulse is the change in momentum. https://www.differencebetween.com/diffe ... s-impulse/


If you think of momentum as force x time, a push has a high time value and a lower force value, a heavy punch has a higher force value and lower time value than a push and an explosive punch has a higher force value and lower time value than a heavy punch. As the force increases the human body tends to deform more - as force increases the body deforms more and moves less in space.


If you think of impulse as force x time, a push has a higher time value and a lower force value... It is the change in momentum (impulse) that causes damage, not the momentum itself. As the old expression goes, it isn't the fall that kills you, it's the hitting the ground - the sudden change in momentum, from something to zero in negligible time.

It's a subtle distinction that doesn't really change your substance of your argument.
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