taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby Subitai on Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:32 pm

This is what I took away from watching this guys explanations:

1st part he talks about the way power is structured

Seems to me he saying Western is balanced and light, ever changing and adaptable. I'm saying that because whether he realizes it or not, that's literally what he's describing. Hell whats not to like about that?

So for eastern structure...he basically alludes to it being more structured...Slower and albeit (HE THINKS) it's more powerful. Wow...ok, if that's how you train and believe it so.

2nd ........... about combinations

I was kinda dumbfounded by comparison comments at first:
- Western balanced but high risk?
- eastern too powerful?

I possibly think I know what he's trying to say but honestly.... just theories... Fights proves all.

But I don't agree that eastern doesn't really focus on or use combinations. Although it really is how far do you want to take it...For example, if I punch my way in and I see an arm lock is available ...i'll switch to that easily and then if he happens to open his head up again for and easy strike, i'll keep it going till i get the finish i'm looking for.

Style or methodology doesn't dictate to me how aggressively I can pursue my opponent...I make that choice.

3rd...he spoke about timing and distance and even mentioned Bruce Lee (but only about his 1st inch punch)

It's too bad...because what Bruce focused on (Smartly I might add) is the ability to JEET (intercept). Jeet was IMO far the most profound concept that he taught. Jeet solves allot of problems when it comes to how Western and Eastern Match up.


4th...he basically is talking about the Mantra that im constantly spewing:

"The hand doesn't come back empty"

More importantly...but not said by this teacher, is what I also say allot: "The ability to stop or prevent a person from pulling their hands (arms) back" so as to make it uncomfortable for them to strike.

* As a Side note: That and whenever I hear a guy say, " We don't practice Grabbing" ... I just smile to myself.


5th...I do agree with his last sentiments about learning eastern power generation can help you become better. Hey, shouldn't that exist without even have to say it?

Everyone has something good to offer at sometimes. You just have to be open and listen.
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby marvin8 on Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:01 pm

Subitai wrote:This is what I took away from watching this guys explanations:

1st part he talks about the way power is structured

Seems to me he saying Western is balanced and light, ever changing and adaptable. I'm saying that because whether he realizes it or not, that's literally what he's describing. Hell whats not to like about that?

So for eastern structure...he basically alludes to it being more structured...Slower and albeit (HE THINKS) it's more powerful. Wow...ok, if that's how you train and believe it so.

He doesn't say eastern is "more structured." He says western is balanced—making it not powerful enough. Eastern crashes their weight on the opponent. @ 7:12, "Give your weight to him. Our bodies are not balanced. ... @ 7:17, If you are balanced, all of your power is not enough to move him." Then, he proceeds to "western" shadow box without throwing punches and transferring weight which is not proper western shadow boxing.

Subitai wrote: 2nd ........... about combinations

I was kinda dumbfounded by comparison comments at first:
- Western balanced but high risk?
- eastern too powerful?

I possibly think I know what he's trying to say but honestly.... just theories... Fights proves all.

But I don't agree that eastern doesn't really focus on or use combinations. Although it really is how far do you want to take it...For example, if I punch my way in and I see an arm lock is available ...i'll switch to that easily and then if he happens to open his head up again for and easy strike, i'll keep it going till i get the finish i'm looking for.

Style or methodology doesn't dictate to me how aggressively I can pursue my opponent...I make that choice.

Right, eastern uses an asking hand to sense a reaction from an opponent, then uses their force against themselves. Their opponent's force tells them which direction to go.

Subitai wrote: 3rd...he spoke about timing and distance and even mentioned Bruce Lee (but only about his 1st inch punch)

It's too bad...because what Bruce focused on (Smartly I might add) is the ability to JEET (intercept). Jeet was IMO far the most profound concept that he taught. Jeet solves allot of problems when it comes to how Western and Eastern Match up.

Yes, a safe fighting distance (if one can control it) is where the opponent can't touch you. Otherwise, one is just trading punches or kicks.

Depending on the definition, intercepting (relying on speed) is not the highest skill. Because, one may be reacting rather than controlling. Controlling the opponent's intentions is a higher skill than reacting to them. For example, look low (feint) drawing hands to block low (creating intention), then punch high.

Subitai wrote:4th...he basically is talking about the Mantra that im constantly spewing:

"The hand doesn't come back empty"

More importantly...but not said by this teacher, is what I also say allot: "The ability to stop or prevent a person from pulling their hands (arms) back" so as to make it uncomfortable for them to strike.

* As a Side note: That and whenever I hear a guy say, " We don't practice Grabbing" ... I just smile to myself.

He is talking about "crashing" and "unbalancing," then proceeds to push the opponent away.

Subitai wrote:5th...I do agree with his last sentiments about learning eastern power generation can help you become better. Hey, shouldn't that exist without even have to say it?

Everyone has something good to offer at sometimes. You just have to be open and listen.

I agree with Greg J:
Greg J wrote:For the record, I'm not saying that there is no such thing as internal energy, or that different systems with different ways of moving aren't valid.
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby dspyrido on Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:08 pm

What subitai & wayne said. To add - he talks about the:

West like shoalin being fast & lots of movement. Then he demos on a stationary opponent. How would the "crashing wave" work against a balanced, fast moving opponent? It won't. They won't come in contact until fist meets face.

Power chain & he stops the ability to punch by placing his hand at certain points. Ok so what would happen to the DT power movement if he put the palm on his knee BEFORE they are in contact? He won't be able to step in and DT the same way.

Delivery of the DT punch? Before they are in contact is he going to rush in like a mad bull? If so the his legs are easy targets (side kick much like he shows against the west). If he was to go "western" style using evasion and angles then he is well positioned to get in and crash/wave/dt. But along the way can also hit & avoid being hit.

And finally - the beng he demos. Boxing has the dig/rip/close uppercut. I can't think of any striking style that does not have a lunge/push/driving punch vs. the whipping/snapping punch. One is designed to snap back fast the other is designed to crash, lift, envelope guards.
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby dspyrido on Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:26 pm

Greg J wrote:


Interesting article!


I like that they are attempting to do a scientific analysis but this study has a lot of conceptual flaws (scientific seems sound which still makes it good).

1. They mention wing chun, white crane, xy .... & then assess .... a push. A push! Not a strike. A push.
2. The average age of the people being tested is 28. Let's go from experience - how many cross trained "internal" masters are roughly around this age?
3. Fajin is a broad concept around issuing power. Aside from the push part the mechanics of these styles view it very differently. A chain punch from WC vs. bung from XY vs. long fist vs. ... is not going to have the same "fajin".

The part that I liked was the ground reaction force. IMO now we are getting somewhere that starts to go into the realms of internal and how it manages impact & uses it.

Again - just IMO but "internally" trained structure does not just get it's unique power by pushing off from the ground. It does this along with the coordinated use of the bows & then get's it from being able to take the reaction force into the body but due to the lack of blockages (tension) & the use of bone structure it will pass the impact into the ground which .... also reacts & passes the impact back up ... into the person being hit. This is just a view as I have not seen any studies that have assessed this.

Getting this right means punches can be delivered from hardly any stance (parallel leg even) that can strike out at a short or long distance and mess up someone. This opens up ability to drop the body weight down and strike up at the same time or to step left while striking right or adapt a strike on contact but still have knock out power. This is not a skill normally seem with strikers unless they are really relaxed yet coordinated.
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby AJG on Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:35 pm

Its nice seeing something out of CMA where they are not wearing a silk suit.

Apart from that I was just bored watching this so couldn't watch the entire clip. Looks like a guy who has cross trained in boxing and is trying to reconcile his experience with CMA. I didn't really seeing anything special in terms of body mechanics.
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby marvin8 on Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:28 pm

dspyrido wrote:
Greg J wrote:


Interesting article!


I like that they are attempting to do a scientific analysis but this study has a lot of conceptual flaws (scientific seems sound which still makes it good).

1. They mention wing chun, white crane, xy .... & then assess .... a push. A push! Not a strike. A push.
2. The average age of the people being tested is 28. Let's go from experience - how many cross trained "internal" masters are roughly around this age?
3. Fajin is a broad concept around issuing power. Aside from the push part the mechanics of these styles view it very differently. A chain punch from WC vs. bung from XY vs. long fist vs. ... is not going to have the same "fajin".

These were the same flaws in the OP demo, more pushing than striking while demonstrating only one way IMA uses power which is why I posted that study. Contrary to the OP video, IMA also uses the "power chain" in some movements (e.g., brush knee twist step, etc).

Below is a similar move to the "eastern power" without the "dantian" making it faster, more balanced (per the OP video) and powerful enough to knock down an opponent. Also, modern power uses "yao jin" (waist power) as does tai chi per the study, "A Scientific Perspective of Neijin (Internal Strength)." The Dempsey Falling Step (one can just raise and lower their front heel without stepping):

Image Image

MMA push similar move to the "eastern power" without the "dantian," but "faster, more balanced" and powerful enough:

Image

I observed some of the same flaws in the following lengthy videos as in the OP video. Contrary to the following videos, some modern short punches keep their arm "like a stick." Some IMA moves bend and extend the arm.
TriEssence Martial Arts on Oct 22, 2019 wrote:
In this video, I attempt to explain, the physics and principles behind internal styles to my understanding, and how it differs from other methods such as kinetic chain.

As always constructive comments are welcome and feel free to contact me for class details in Gauteng South Africa atm, and in NSW AU in the near future:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIOnIQhFXdY

TriEssence Martial Arts on Oct 9, 2019 wrote:This will be the first in a series of videos where I discuss and explain the 4 fundamental forces found in all authentic internal CMA,

No matter which style or lineage of internal CMA you practice, one should always be able to find representation or variation of these 4 forces in their training.

My channel has always been intended to be informative and educational rather than instructional, in other word you will not be able to learn the 4 forces by watching my video, nor do I think its at all possible to learn cma from any video, the goal is to share what one should expect to learn when learning authentic internal styles.

There will be more in depth video on each of these forces which will be exclusive to my Patreon supporters, so if you find this video or any other video on my channel to be useful, please consider supporting me on Patreon, its very much appreciated.

As always constructive comments are welcome and feel free to contact me for class details in Gauteng South Africa atm, and in NSW AU in the near future:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k1W8nYJ4pI
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby Bhassler on Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:01 pm

"Kinetic Chain"

Image
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby marvin8 on Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:54 pm

Bhassler wrote:"Kinetic Chain"

Image

I USED THAT WORD because the two demonstrators USED THAT WORD. Both gave examples saying IT MEANS the same thing I and researchers gave examples of and said what it means.

Since you know what I think it means, WHAT DO YOU THINK IT MEANS?
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby Bhassler on Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:18 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Bhassler wrote:"Kinetic Chain"

Image

I USED THAT WORD because the two demonstrators USED THAT WORD. Both gave examples saying IT MEANS the same thing I and researchers gave examples of and said what it means.

Since you know what I think it means, WHAT DO YOU THINK IT MEANS?


Simmer down, Hoss, I was referring to the videos, not to you personally. The kinetic chain refers to the connected relationship between each segment of the body in movement. To say that IMA doesn't use the kinetic chain is to say that there is no relationship in movement between one part of the body and another in IMA. I suppose if one were to believe in magic chi powers that might be feasible, but otherwise, it's just a bunch of yahoos with video cameras using words they don't understand to explain (or contrast) arts they also likely don't understand.
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby marvin8 on Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:54 am

Bhassler wrote:
marvin8 wrote:I USED THAT WORD because the two demonstrators USED THAT WORD. Both gave examples saying IT MEANS the same thing I and researchers gave examples of and said what it means.

Since you know what I think it means, WHAT DO YOU THINK IT MEANS?


Simmer down, Hoss, I was referring to the videos, not to you personally. The kinetic chain refers to the connected relationship between each segment of the body in movement. To say that IMA doesn't use the kinetic chain is to say that there is no relationship in movement between one part of the body and another in IMA. I suppose if one were to believe in magic chi powers that might be feasible, but otherwise, it's just a bunch of yahoos with video cameras using words they don't understand to explain (or contrast) arts they also likely don't understand.

I am simmered down, Hass. I was just pacing what I thought was your shouting and memeing me.

There may be differences in modern and eastern power generation. However, many of their comparisons seemed flawed or lacked modern fighting knowledge. I rather hear more accurate biomechanical differences. The last two videos may have more actual differences. But, I didn't have the time to break them down. However, whether you "hit a wall using the kinetic chain" or "with an arm like a stick," it's still going to hurt your hand.
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby everything on Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:52 pm

If there were some "secret" and Vastly Better(tm) biomechanics that are good for applying power to humans, objects, humans and objects, every top athlete (gifted and hardworking beyond what we know) in super popular sports, some with measured outcomes (such as javelin throw or pole vaulting) would have them already. Either they do have them without having trained "internal" and "internal" just came naturally, or they do not have them and someone should be able to go and show them. Or they are incredibly stupid, ignorant, naive to have overlooked some kind of primitive human tech. Or they don't need them because their "external" is so "high level". In which case no one need bother with "internal" for these kinds of reasons. Maybe it's better to just stop looking for windmills that don't exist. :-\ Or at least look for the windmills that the former "internal" masters looked for and wrote about a lot. :-[
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