taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

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taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby marvin8 on Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:28 pm

武术搏击Chinese kungfu sanda kickboxing
Nov 1, 2019

if you want to learn,add my wechat(Chat app in China)NO.:xingwuwenhua2:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwks7rlYgKo
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby windwalker on Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:26 am

Nice clip.

Agree with many of the explanations noted.
The assumptions have not been borne out in real-time by any recent demonstration.

This might mean that those practitioners never achieved skill sets in line with theory.

Or assumptions upon which the theory is based on need modification.

Offhand I would say what he describes is wave power , vs impact. This might explain the different types of training and answer some questions posed in another thread concerning bag hitting and why some stylist don't feel it's needed or used in the same way. The type a power and how it's delivered is very different.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby Wanderingdragon on Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:30 am

Force does not turn corners. In this demo, he must show downward and inward force or he is only demonstratin push power, hardly uniquely internal.
Last edited by Wanderingdragon on Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby windwalker on Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:49 am

Wanderingdragon wrote:Force does not turn corners. In this demo, he must show downward and inward force or he is only demonstrating push power, hardly uniquely internal.


Might want to link a clip explaining what your referencing, making it more clear.
Seems pretty much standard usage for IMA usage...

IMO his explanations by translation explaining what he feels he's doing are not so clear although they do illustrate the differences in thought and practice between different ways of body usage...

Wonder if the chinese on the org clip or shown explained it more clearly.

answers a lot of the questions posed in this thread https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 2fb5232a90
"taiji striking" as to why some stylist feel that striking the bag "in this manor" is not conducive to deloping the type of skill, power that is explained in the clip.

I would question some of the assumptions made, as to distancing, and combinations ect. noting in some of the very public fails shown by those claiming to be practitioners of taiji and wing chun exemplify some of the ideas suggested in the clip.

In the clip he speaks of triangle alignment, this teacher talks about the same ideas and demos them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJZ9iy2ZG0o
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby windwalker on Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:59 am

from the same teacher


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olzg2OBIgBU


Changing the balance at the point of contact,,, a "high level" or advanced level, skill set....
for which one should understand and be able to use basic level skills before trying
or relying in this...

edited: when theory matches reality


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs_kdGe ... e=youtu.be
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:18 pm

So many flawed examples here hie theory just doesn't match up
His demo of beng wouldn't match up to a rip to the ribs by Tyson
When he pushes the guy back he uses two totally different directions of force
Apples and oranges
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby windwalker on Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:26 pm

wayne hansen wrote:So many flawed examples here hie theory just doesn't match up
His demo of beng wouldn't match up to a rip to the ribs by Tyson
When he pushes the guy back he uses two totally different directions of force
Apples and oranges


Did he mention "Mike Tyson" :o
Who do you think would match up with "Mike Tyson's" power

Boxers have been shown by many studies to develop very real usable power in their movements


FWIW don't feel the explanations translated do it justice as evidenced by some of the comments.
It would be interesting to read the thoughts of the native speakers here concerning what is either being said
or shown in the clip.


He has to do a couple of things the first is off balancing,,,,the main point of his demo...
some call it changing the yin/yang point...the main point being that the other person has to deal with
the loss of balance, jumping back or moving back is one way, something that most do...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jDP3sfJCuI

This teacher talks about the same things, starting from a static position
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:55 am

Language is language
I look at the physical language
Tyson or no Tyson what he is showing on how beng works is not internal just bad mechanics
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:29 am

wayne hansen wrote:Language is language
I look at the physical language
Tyson or no Tyson what he is showing on how beng works is not internal just bad mechanics


Care to post a clip of what you feel good beng looks like or how it should work?

Thought the "demo" was ok, with clear distinctions between types of force
and rational...noting the same explanations are used and demoed among other
teachers talking about the same things.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby everything on Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:42 am

Just the fact Tyson comes up should make people realize they should stop chasing biomechanics windmills.

Otherwise someone tell Messi he’s also kicking wrong.
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby marvin8 on Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:07 pm

windwalker wrote:Thought the "demo" was ok, with clear distinctions between types of force
and rational...noting the same explanations are used and demoed among other
teachers talking about the same things.

Some observations:

1. Only compares the boxing straight punch. Dempsey Falling step punch is closer to beng chuan in power generation.
2. Demonstrator is pushing more than punching.
3. MMA will grapple or clinch at close range, not push away.
4. The feeder is static while being pushed.
5. Xingyi player can be stopped by kicking knee too.
6. In xingyi fighting videos, never saw opponent unbalanced from a xingyi punch as shown.
7. IMA uses kinetic chain in some movements too.
8. Boxing doesn’t have to use combinations. IMA uses combinations, too.
9. Boxing doesn’t require stepping.
10. Boxing transfers weight too and delivers power while staying balanced.
11. “Throwing weight on opponent” and being off balance (over committing) can be countered.
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:39 pm

I would question some of the assumptions made, as to distancing, and combinations ect. noting in some of the very public fails shown by those claiming to be practitioners of taiji and wing chun exemplify some of the ideas suggested in the clip.


guess you missed my earlier post. :-\

What he mentions and assumptions made, can be seen if one looks at the public fails of those who've said they were practincers of the arts mentioned.
It might one of the problems in their training found out the hard way...

While at other times working with others under certain constraints
it may seem to work...


Aside from that, thought it was an interesting take, presenting differences in thought and usage by a CMA practincer.


Thought the "demo" was ok, for some of the points it was trying to make.....
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby marvin8 on Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:43 pm

windwalker wrote:
I would question some of the assumptions made, as to distancing, and combinations ect. noting in some of the very public fails shown by those claiming to be practitioners of taiji and wing chun exemplify some of the ideas suggested in the clip.


guess you missed my earlier post. :-\

What he mentions and assumptions made, can be seen if one looks at the public fails of those who've said they were practincers of the arts mentioned.
It might one of the problems in their training found out the hard way...

While at other times working with others under certain constraints
it may seem to work...

No, I didn't miss it. My observations were not a commentary on your earlier post.

windwalker wrote:Aside from that, thought it was an interesting take, presenting differences in thought and usage by a CMA practincer.
The mechanics of fajin His take on the "differences"

Thought the "demo" was ok, for some of the points it was trying to make.....

While explaining the differences in using the dantian, the presenter failed to mention the ground reaction force that starts from the rear foot. This is found in the following fajin study which makes it closer to the way modern fighters generate power.

Excerpts from "A biomechanical assessment of fajin mechanisms in martial arts:"

Jia-Hao Chang, Yao-Ting Chang, Chen-Fu Huang on 16 September 2014 wrote:The ground reaction force helps create maximal power in a short duration, allowing a maximal impulse to be instantly transmitted to another party. Body-wide muscle coordination occurs during transmission of the ground reaction force and is a key contributor to the quality of fajin movements [2]. When the fajin is released from the body, all of the joints in the upper and lower limbs shift from flexion to extension. Large joints, including the hip of the pushing foot and the shoulder joints, start extending once contact occurs. The shoulder joints continue extending throughout the action period. In the lower limbs, joint exten¬sion begins with the rear pushing foot and extends to the front supporting foot, whereas in the upper limbs, joint extension occurs in a bottom-up man¬ner throughout the fajin motion [3]. The movements of the limb segments and joints are mainly produced by muscle contraction, which is activated by nerve potential that are conducted to the muscle fibers. The speed and tension of the muscle contractions corre¬spond to these nerve potentials. …

This sequence of peak activations is identical to the order determined by Nien for all of the examined muscles (except for the triceps) [1]. The integrated muscle use involves pushing by the rear foot, extension of the rear leg to maintain stability, and continued force exertion through the upper limbs. The force in the upper limbs prevents the reaction force (generated by contact with the fajin recipient) from bending the upper limb and mitigates the forward thrust of the fajin motion. The muscle groups in the torso are responsible for main¬taining the upper body’s postural stability to avoid a loss of balance. The muscle groups in the right sup¬porting leg reach their peak activation during the late stages of fajin, providing stability as the center of grav¬ity shifts forward into a lunge. This movement helps complete the power transfer process.
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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby Greg J on Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:10 pm



Interesting article! Some of this went over my head, but two take away points for me were:

1. Generation of power comes from physics, i.e., how the body moves through space, and not mysterious internal energy moved/ projected by the mind. "More specifically, the fajin practitioner first moves his centre of gravity as far back as possible and then quickly shifts it forward through the extension of his rear foot and the flexion of his front foot." (p 223-224).

2. The production of maximum forward-directed force begins with the rear foot. "This finding verifies that fajin is launched by pushing against the ground with the rear foot." (p. 224). Ironically, this is very consistent with with what boxers do when pivoting and pushing with their rear foot (the "power chain" / "modern way" filmed and described in the original video from 1:43-2:10).

For the record, I'm not saying that there is no such thing as internal energy, or that different systems with different ways of moving aren't valid.

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Re: taichi xingyi bagua way of useing power (English subtitles)

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:33 pm

No I have no film to post it would be of little use
I see what I see u see what u see
People have to earn my teaching or it is of little value
Last edited by wayne hansen on Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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