Most traditional martial arts are fake

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Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby GrahamB on Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:00 am

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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby Finny on Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:59 am

If by 'most traditional martial arts' you mean the few traditional Chinese martial arts Xu Xiaodong has dealt with... and if by 'fake' you mean 'don't work effectively as commonly trained in MMA'... then sure.

Not sure how the traditional arts like Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, Sumo, Savate, Boxing etc fit into that equation...
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby everything on Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:23 am

those arts are also sports trained and done under resistance.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby Peacedog on Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:37 pm

Keep in mind the traditional community has largely brought this problem upon themselves.

While everyone here knows people who can fight effectively with traditional arts, those people are a tiny minority of the overall number of people practicing the traditional martial arts.

You get better at fighting by fighting. Very few traditional arts do this in any but the most limited and ritual of formats.

If you spend 18 months in an MMA school, you will be able to fight at the end of it. I'm not saying you will be able to go pro. But you will be competent.

That is very unlikely in all but a few traditional schools.
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby Finny on Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:57 pm

everything wrote:those arts are also sports trained and done under resistance.


Is kyudo 'fake' if it doesn't work in the octagon?
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby Overlord on Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:36 am

GrahamB wrote:https://youtu.be/P4GldFLJNU8



A more nuanced take on this topic is here:

https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2019/ ... arts-fake/


If this is the truth, there is no point to debate here.
I found there is a trend of our media trying to alter our conscience
1, Promote women the thug like attitude and violence
2, Eradicating knight like attitude or gentleness and courtesy in martial arts
3, Demote manliness
4, Reductionist approach and ignorant about refinement
5, Ignore that different physique need different methods of training

Not saying TCM is not without issues. But this generalisation is just BS.
Xu Xiaodong is a byproduct of communism and reductionism, any traditions are in the way of so called “modernisation “ of great China. Cheers
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:31 am

I think it's funny that I had heard of none of these tai chi masters before these matches
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby everything on Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:43 pm

Finny wrote:
everything wrote:those arts are also sports trained and done under resistance.


Is kyudo 'fake' if it doesn't work in the octagon?


no idea, but most humans don't actually have "real" fights with bows/arrows any more so who knows how those folks "test under resistance". there are some isolated groups who might still kill you with arrows if you get too close:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/21/worl ... tribe.html
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby grzegorz on Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:43 pm

Lot of interesting points here.

I think Xu XiaoDong should be in the title because otherwise it just seems like a 1990s video.

(Somehow seems to feed into the HK thread which seems to have a lot of anti-HK sentiment in that Xu XiaoDong shows why some Chinese want more freedoms.)

I think dude has a point that obviously MMA can teach you basic street fighting and in an MMA fight it is absolutely necessary. Very 1990s! I also can appreciate him mentioning the other benefits of TMA but it is hard to know what he means by TMA. I mean judo is basically the roots of BJJ and they are both children of Japanese Jujitsu turned competitive combat sports.

What I liked about judo is (in my humble experience) they never discussed fighting. You just did it and enjoyed it and that was that. I think others or "TMAs" could benefit from this. Now if I were to teach taiji I would not discuss fighting (but I know it is there and I work on that too) but I think some instructors (of taiji and other styles) discuss fighting to sell lessons and I don't think they should unless you specifically teaching competitive fighting. It's a grey area but unless you are going to put them up against a fully resisting opponent some may falsely believe they are fighters. I have seen 90 pound Aikido people appear this way too, where their only experience of fighting is wristlocking and throwing compliant opponents.

Then of course there is Krav Magav and South East knife fighters who don't fight by MMA rules.

Thanks for sharing G.
Last edited by grzegorz on Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:54 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby Finny on Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:25 pm

everything wrote:
Finny wrote:
everything wrote:those arts are also sports trained and done under resistance.


Is kyudo 'fake' if it doesn't work in the octagon?


no idea, but most humans don't actually have "real" fights with bows/arrows any more so who knows how those folks "test under resistance". there are some isolated groups who might still kill you with arrows if you get too close:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/21/worl ... tribe.html


Whether people actually kill each other with bow and arrow these days is irrelevant, the point is that not all 'Traditional' arts train to fight under the MMA rule set. Plenty have completely different goals and practices. To label them as 'fake' because you choose to apply your own ignorant standards is idiotic.
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby Trick on Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:44 am

everything wrote:
Finny wrote:
everything wrote:those arts are also sports trained and done under resistance.


Is kyudo 'fake' if it doesn't work in the octagon?


no idea, but most humans don't actually have "real" fights with bows/arrows any more so who knows how those folks "test under resistance". there are some isolated groups who might still kill you with arrows if you get too close:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/21/worl ... tribe.html

The other day I saw a pic of an HK-CIA hang around hooligan shooting arrows at the police that try to make HK great again...
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby Trick on Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:50 am

wayne hansen wrote:I think it's funny that I had heard of none of these tai chi masters before these matches

I also never heard about their opponents either...I guess the high level guys on either sides are not bothered about low levels 8-)
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby Peacedog on Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:22 am

I think it had more to do with the unknown "tai chi masters" looking for some free publicity to grow their business with. And being so delusional that they didn't realize they were getting into the ring with a brawler who didn't mind humiliating them.

As for the better known practitioners, they aren't participating because they don't want to risk their business by being publicly humiliated either. Mostly because they are self aware enough to know they can't really fight either. Regardless of their actual martial ability, most of the better known practitioners are 60 years old, or older.

And the truth is very few older men, MMA or not, stand any chance at all against a large strong man in his 30s with competent boxing skills.

Why would any of these guys risk their reputation?
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby grzegorz on Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:36 am

Fact is, as is most sports, the better athlete wins.

To me wrestling has a lot of the best and toughest athletes so it is no surprise that these guys are the core of American CIA MMA fighters who strike fear in the heart of all Northern Europeans everywhere. 8-)
Last edited by grzegorz on Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby Peacedog on Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:49 am

Whut no CrossFit bro? ;D

But on a serious note, wrestlers are up there. I would say for pure endurance that Western rules professional boxers win. Muay Thai boxers are pretty high end too once you get to the professional ranks. But overall, wrestlers probably have it when you include amateurs.

I've never seen a fat guy keep up with wrestling long term. And all of their older guys are pretty fit.
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