Most traditional martial arts are fake

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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:51 am

I see Krav Magra mentioned ,I wonder how they would go if he targeted if he targeted then and systema
How about if he mama targeted most karate or Tae Kwon do practitioners
Lots of instructors out there of many arts seem to get away with less than master like skills
We have seen a Aikido guy show just where his own art is lacking in a ring atmosphere
I say give up all martial arts now before it's too late
I train in a park everyday where there are two woefull tai chi classes being taught one for free
The problem I see today is that people not being willing to search out and train in the old ways
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby Bhassler on Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:00 pm

wayne hansen wrote:The problem I see today is that people not being willing to search out and train in the old ways


Either unwilling, or they don't realize there's actually something different to be found.

The good news is that I'm seeing more and more MMA/kickboxing/boxing/BJJ schools that aren't producing fighters, either. They're taking the sport training of MMA and converting it to proper McDojo training to capitalize on everyone's desire to feel like a badass without having to be uncomfortable or work. Soon, the playing field will be level, and the market will be ready for the next big sensation. Can't wait!
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby grzegorz on Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:03 pm

Peacedog wrote:Whut no CrossFit bro? ;D


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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby dspyrido on Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:56 pm

Bhassler wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:The problem I see today is that people not being willing to search out and train in the old ways


Either unwilling, or they don't realize there's actually something different to be found.

The good news is that I'm seeing more and more MMA/kickboxing/boxing/BJJ schools that aren't producing fighters, either. They're taking the sport training of MMA and converting it to proper McDojo training to capitalize on everyone's desire to feel like a badass without having to be uncomfortable or work. Soon, the playing field will be level, and the market will be ready for the next big sensation. Can't wait!


I don't think people have changed at all. There's genetics & life experience that produces the 1% committed to martial arts types.

In the 80 & 90s many people signed up for CMA as they followed in the footsteps of old bruce. These where people with a fighting spirit, a desire to learn & a shit load of heart to take punishment and still keep coming. Where are they now? Well they exist in hardcore sports arenas. The 1% just shifted away from CMA to a more overt provable method of training. These where the types that would take on challenges and fight with heart - just like they used to in the 80s & 90s in CMA.

Unfortunately for the remaining 99% they just don't have the right stuff or perseverance to get knocked down & keep coming. McDojos will always exist and will always be led by the hardcore nut jobs who make up the 1% of the 1% of the 1% - you know the ones who are on the spectrum for martial arts and will sacrifice everything to get there OR they are just born with that extra thick skull or additional muscle that most humans don't have.

For the rest there's ...

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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby chenyaolong on Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:32 pm

What I think a lot of people fail to realise in this argument is the context of which CMA grew up in.

Nowadays, when people choose a martial arts, the majority of them are starting from absolutely zero.... a lot of middle class, white collars looking for some kind of hobby and having no previous experience of real world violence. They are signing up for their martial art of choice with the expectation it is going to teach them how to fight from nothing.

In the past, for example in pre-20th century China, violence was much more a part of everyday life, particularly in the rural areas. Villages would fight each other, there was banditry etc etc. The majority of people weren't going from their comfortable life to learn *how* to fight, but were already experienced in it, and were looking for a way to get an edge. They didn't need someone to take them out of their comfort zones and be shown how to block punches, how to hit someone from the correct distance, or how to maintain their cool under pressure. They were learning more efficient ways of generating power, more efficient ways of receiving force, and more unorthodox techniques their opponent wouldn't expect.

If you consider it from that point of view, the lack of pressure testing in CMA makes sense. As society got more stable, people were coming to learn CMA but without the background in fighting people had before. The training methods didn't change a whole lot, but the people practicing did.

This is just my opinion, I could be completely wrong.... but I think its worth consideration.
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:01 am

.
If you consider it from that point of view, the lack of pressure testing in CMA makes sense. As society got more stable, people were coming to learn CMA but without the background in fighting people had before. The training methods didn't change a whole lot, but the people practicing did.


The problem of course being that people who claim to have the backgrounds in those systems also claim to be fighters and enter enter public competitions representing the systems they've trained.


One could argue that either they didn't receive the real training or they're not fighters, as measured by competitive events.


In almost all cases they end up with the same results. Or perhaps even worse they do not use what they claim to have trained in.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:33 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:09 am

In the past, for example in pre-20th century China, violence was much more a part of everyday life, particularly in the rural areas. Villages would fight each other, there was banditry etc etc


Which one might agree is very different than stepping into a ring with a trained athlete who has been through numerous competitions to arrive at that level.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyH7S9-YGBw

This was in HK long ago.

He was alone in Hong Kong in November, 1980, only to promote a karate movie on a talk show. Look what had transpired in 24 hours, he thought.

Someone in the TV studio audience had stood up and called him nothing but an actor, a sham of a fighter. The man--who turned out to be a Hong Kong kick boxing champion--challenged Urquidez to a death match. Urquidez demanded $20,000 and a mink coat, calling the man’s bluff. The challenger’s promoter met Urquidez the next day, however, handed over the cash and the coat and drove him to the noisy warehouse.


Maybe a little before your time, some might remember him here. Benny the Jet.

He also went though China, visiting various CMA gyms with some friends, taking it easy on the locals there from what I've read.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:07 am

That’s news,that he traveled trough (mainland?)China(back in the 80’s?). In Japan he was, and became a living legend there.. However his own style of martial art goes under the somehow traditional sounding name ‘Ukidokan’
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:59 pm

Trick wrote:That’s news,that he traveled trough (mainland?)China(back in the 80’s?). In Japan he was, and became a living legend there.. However his own style of martial art goes under the somehow traditional sounding name ‘Ukidokan’


Couldn't find the article, he made a movie with Jackie Chan


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ltRBEu0IU


In the interview he had mentioned that him and some of his team traveled though china,
and had some friendly interactions with some of the local CMA gyms ect....He took care
not to hurt any of them....
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:12 pm

Tradition put to use


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy0-Dt9mPiI

He broke the guys shoulder with the throw... :P
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby aamc on Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:13 pm

Shame on you for not knowing that Benny 'The Jet' Urquidez made two films with Jackie Chan:

Wheels on Meals, which is the clip above and the rather excellent Dragons forever.

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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:17 pm

chenyaolong wrote:What I think a lot of people fail to realise in this argument is the context of which CMA grew up in.

Nowadays, when people choose a martial arts, the majority of them are starting from absolutely zero.... a lot of middle class, white collars looking for some kind of hobby and having no previous experience of real world violence. They are signing up for their martial art of choice with the expectation it is going to teach them how to fight from nothing.

In the past, for example in pre-20th century China, violence was much more a part of everyday life, particularly in the rural areas. Villages would fight each other, there was banditry etc etc. The majority of people weren't going from their comfortable life to learn *how* to fight, but were already experienced in it, and were looking for a way to get an edge. They didn't need someone to take them out of their comfort zones and be shown how to block punches, how to hit someone from the correct distance, or how to maintain their cool under pressure. They were learning more efficient ways of generating power, more efficient ways of receiving force, and more unorthodox techniques their opponent wouldn't expect.

If you consider it from that point of view, the lack of pressure testing in CMA makes sense. As society got more stable, people were coming to learn CMA but without the background in fighting people had before. The training methods didn't change a whole lot, but the people practicing did.

This is just my opinion, I could be completely wrong.... but I think its worth consideration.


That is logical, and I do know that there are real fighters in the CMA world. But, why are there so many videos of supposed grandmasters from older generations (I'm thinking for example of the old black and white footage of the white crane and taiji fight in a boxing ring way back when) who clearly just sucked and had no idea how to fight, even on a basic level? Did things degenerate that fast? In one generation?
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:23 pm

Shame on you for not knowing that Benny 'The Jet' Urquidez made two films with Jackie Chan:


Liked Jackie's work...Benny talks a little bit about him in another interview.

A good tribute to the jet...

The scene a little bit different back in the day


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYItTH_NmGU
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby Trick on Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:24 am

Back in the early 80’s I did some kickboxing training, the owner and trainer at the gym was named Benny, he had a couple of years earlier placed third at the WAKO world championships. I’ve heard of the name Benny the Jet and asked the coach if that possible was him...he smiled and said no no that’s another Benny, and he’s very good.


Look for video clips of Benny the jet when fighting in Japan, coolness and fighting spirit in perfect mix


Oh, and to keep it to the traditional, that Swedish kickboxing coach has a Shotokan Karate background
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Re: Most traditional martial arts are fake

Postby chenyaolong on Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:10 am

Ian C. Kuzushi wrote:
That is logical, and I do know that there are real fighters in the CMA world. But, why are there so many videos of supposed grandmasters from older generations (I'm thinking for example of the old black and white footage of the white crane and taiji fight in a boxing ring way back when) who clearly just sucked and had no idea how to fight, even on a basic level? Did things degenerate that fast? In one generation?


Well as we weren't there we can only rely on limited sources. If we look at the early 20th century, the only video footage around from then is people doing basic forms as a kind of calisthenic, or of the KMT doing weapon drills in lines. Those shockingly bad videos like the White Crane one in question, I would think is just an early case of what's happening with Xu Xiao Dong now.... delusional idiots trying to get the limelight. It's worth noting that in China it's common knowledge that Xu ignores challenges from a lot of people who are more likely to be competent.
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