Tai chi tuishou. Less is more — Ian Sinclair

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Tai chi tuishou. Less is more — Ian Sinclair

Postby marvin8 on Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:08 am

Ian Sinclair
Dec 28, 2019

The biomechanics of tai chi tuishou (pushing hands) may seem like magic or trickery. But it is based on Newtonian mechanics. Few people get the hang of it, however. One of the reasons is the attachment that people have to tension, pressure, and their need for proprioceptive feedback. Effortless is not the goal, it is the method:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAgktLpQsfE
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Re: Tai chi tuishou. Less is more — Ian Sinclair

Postby Bao on Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:56 am

What he says about decreasing pressure and things that could be understood as “less engagement” is perfectly true and perfectly practical. However, very few who hasn’t experienced these things by themselves would understand how it works and how practical it really is. Must sound like philosophy for most people. But it isn’t. And again, it’s perfectly practical. And it works very good.
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Re: Tai chi tuishou. Less is more — Ian Sinclair

Postby Bhassler on Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:58 pm

Kind of disappointing that he says it's all Newtonian physics and then doesn't even attempt to explain what he's doing in Newtonian physical terms. It sounds like he's jumping domains when he talks about lessening pressure and then immediately goes into talking about pushing where the structure/force isn't. Magnitude and direction are two different things. I'm sure it all makes sense as a sort of local jargon between people who train together regularly and can reference the same experiences, but as a stand-alone video, it ends up sort of lacking in terms of actual meaning.
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Re: Tai chi tuishou. Less is more — Ian Sinclair

Postby everything on Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:09 pm

"Martial artists" pretending to be competent physicists when making analogies is like ...
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
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Re: Tai chi tuishou. Less is more — Ian Sinclair

Postby denchen on Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:58 am

The essence of what he says - the need to yield and absorb momentarily before redirecting makes perfect sense to anyone who trains and tests
their taiji against resistance. It's a basic principle of the art but making it work takes time and practice.
He explains himself better than many, Newtonian or not.
You've probably all seen this clip but those who haven't...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDIb9TWy-78



Edit ; fixed Link
Last edited by denchen on Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tai chi tuishou. Less is more — Ian Sinclair

Postby GrahamB on Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:30 am

Less may be more, but more is also more.

More or less.
I could be wrong.
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Re: Tai chi tuishou. Less is more — Ian Sinclair

Postby Bhassler on Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:06 pm

denchen wrote:The essence of what he says - the need to yield and absorb momentarily before redirecting makes perfect sense to anyone who trains and tests
their taiji against resistance.


That's your interpretation of what he said, based on your own knowledge and experience of what was shown in the video, but not actually what he said. Which is kind of the whole point-- what he said is imprecise without physical contact and thus open to interpretation. That's all well and good, as this stuff is hard to talk about. Personally, I just wish when people invoked Newtonian physics, they would actually attempt to use the language to explain what they're doing. It's not a moral judgement, I just like Newtonian physics.
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Re: Tai chi tuishou. Less is more — Ian Sinclair

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:45 am

denchen wrote:The essence of what he says - the need to yield and absorb momentarily before redirecting makes perfect sense to anyone who trains and tests
their taiji against resistance. It's a basic principle of the art but making it work takes time and practice.
He explains himself better than many, Newtonian or not.
You've probably all seen this clip but those who haven't...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDIb9TWy-78



Edit ; fixed Link


Nobody is really watching that are they - the crowd I mean. Like a couple of guys stop and look occasionally, but wow - tough crowd :)
I could be wrong.
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Re: Tai chi tuishou. Less is more — Ian Sinclair

Postby denchen on Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:08 am

Bhassler wrote:
denchen wrote:The essence of what he says - the need to yield and absorb momentarily before redirecting makes perfect sense to anyone who trains and tests
their taiji against resistance.


That's your interpretation of what he said, based on your own knowledge and experience of what was shown in the video, but not actually what he said. Which is kind of the whole point-- what he said is imprecise without physical contact and thus open to interpretation. That's all well and good, as this stuff is hard to talk about. Personally, I just wish when people invoked Newtonian physics, they would actually attempt to use the language to explain what they're doing. It's not a moral judgement, I just like Newtonian physics.



Yeh, i agree with all that.
To be honest I only watched about half of the clip before I drew my conclusion so could have missed something.
As the Stone man says in The Point ( Harry Nillson ) , " you see what you want to hear, and you hear what you want to hear - yer dig " :)
For sure, these things are difficult to discuss, especially in the absence of any shared history, training experience/methodology, often it just
seems obtuse( sometimes indulgently ). Probably why I usually follow from the sidelines.
Like you say, there's no substitute for actual contact to give clarity to such discussion.
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Re: Tai chi tuishou. Less is more — Ian Sinclair

Postby denchen on Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:17 am

GrahamB wrote:
denchen wrote:The essence of what he says - the need to yield and absorb momentarily before redirecting makes perfect sense to anyone who trains and tests
their taiji against resistance. It's a basic principle of the art but making it work takes time and practice.
He explains himself better than many, Newtonian or not.
You've probably all seen this clip but those who haven't...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDIb9TWy-78



Edit ; fixed Link


Nobody is really watching that are they - the crowd I mean. Like a couple of guys stop and look occasionally, but wow - tough crowd :)


Maybe as he doesnt fit people's expectations in that enviroment - no rash guard, carrying a few pounds etc.
He'd probably get more attention doing some form in silk pyjamas :)
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Re: Tai chi tuishou. Less is more — Ian Sinclair

Postby C.J.W. on Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:31 am

The part where he talks about maintaining harmony within yourself and making the opponent an extension of that harmony is very similar to how we approach structure training in our method.
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Re: Tai chi tuishou. Less is more — Ian Sinclair

Postby Subitai on Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:16 pm

Is it just me?... or anyone else feel like after the 1st push (~30secs in) I can imagine John Wangs Allergies going haywire??!! ;D
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Re: Tai chi tuishou. Less is more — Ian Sinclair

Postby Trick on Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:25 am

Anyway I.Newton was more of an occultist and alchemist(philosopher stone,lead into gold, eternal life thing) than an mechanical guy.
He would probably have been a great internal martial artist if he would have stumble upon such activities, and for sure have given some forum members here gray hair days. 8-)
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Re: Tai chi tuishou. Less is more — Ian Sinclair

Postby Ian Sinclair on Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:04 pm

Bhassler wrote:Kind of disappointing that he says it's all Newtonian physics and then doesn't even attempt to explain what he's doing in Newtonian physical terms. It sounds like he's jumping domains when he talks about lessening pressure and then immediately goes into talking about pushing where the structure/force isn't. Magnitude and direction are two different things. I'm sure it all makes sense as a sort of local jargon between people who train together regularly and can reference the same experiences, but as a stand-alone video, it ends up sort of lacking in terms of actual meaning.


You are right, of course. This happens a lot whenever we mix the subjective and objective. I feel that trying too hard to actually explain the physics involved would greatly reduce the niche for this sort of video, especially the way I teach it. It would bore the people who understand physics and confuse those who do not.

Newton's Third Law of Motion is the most relevant principle in this video. If I push a wall, the wall will push back. So, I don't push the wall. Well, I do, but not so much that I increase the pressure. I create the moment (I=L/w) and let the partner create the movement. The neat thing about force is that the force itself does not actually move. The mass accelerates and propagates increasingly chaotic reactive forces, and other reactions that can then be exploited.

If I get attached to vectors, or the reactive force, I will find resistance and fight against it. If I avoid the attachment, then I can exploit the reaction, then my partner pushes himself.

I don't think talking about Newton's Second Law of Motion and explaining angular momentum would be helpful or necessary in this video. I have videos in the works that will, at the very least, give some insight that will allow the physics to appear to make a little bit more sense. But the physics that can be spoken of is not the eternal way.

This video, of course, demonstrates an exercise with a cooperative partner. Applying this in combat requires a more complete set of skills, not only those being tested in this video.
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Re: Tai chi tuishou. Less is more — Ian Sinclair

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:45 pm

Yes it is all Newtonian physics
Any tai chi that dosent exist in that world does not exist
You have some skill Ian and I
Like what you put out there
If your ever in Australia I would like to exchange some energy
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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