Interesting guy: Chinese kung-fu routines are useless Pt.1

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Interesting guy: Chinese kung-fu routines are useless Pt.1

Postby GrahamB on Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:47 am

https://youtu.be/Sr_qcy9-1RE



He says some interesting things and I think when he eventually gets to his point it reminds me a lot of Ian Abernethy's take on Karate Kata. But I don't buy it. I don't think these dumb-looking punches in Kung Fu forms are really hidden grappling moves or collar grabs or whatever, I think they're just genuine dumb-looking punches :) I think a lot of these 'traditional' forms are really not that old, and created to teach the masses quickly, hence they are just dumb-looking punches. But what do I know? I can't even speak Chinese :) Although I did enjoy his righteous outrage at the foreigners not respecting his cutlure. 8-)
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Re: Interesting guy: Chinese kung-fu routines are useless Pt.1

Postby GrahamB on Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:56 pm

Also open to the idea that some of the ‘dumb’ punches were for teaching children or for use on stage in a performance.
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Re: Interesting guy: Chinese kung-fu routines are useless Pt.1

Postby aamc on Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:18 pm

Shrugs shoulders, I don't think the guy is saying anything I've not heard before, so no controversy there. I sort of half agree; IMHO Something happened in the 20th century, people started to assume that the style is the form, they are not. Forms are ancillary material, the essence of the style is in the training methods; basic hand and foot methods, step work, drills etc... I'd also add, that forms often have different objectives between styles and even in the same style for example in Hung Gar; Tiger and Crane, Iron Wire and the Lau Gar forms these all have differing objectives. Finally I'm pretty sure s forms are mnemonic, the shapes are short-hand representations of the actual techniques. If you'd been in the army/militia, back in the day you'd probably have known what these short-hand representations meant.
Last edited by aamc on Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Interesting guy: Chinese kung-fu routines are useless Pt.1

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:13 am

Some Ian Abernethy clips for comparrison. I quite like him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdsRQixRqv0

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Re: Interesting guy: Chinese kung-fu routines are useless Pt.1

Postby marvin8 on Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:35 am

GrahamB wrote:https://youtu.be/Sr_qcy9-1RE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr_qcy9 ... e=youtu.be

He says some interesting things and I think when he eventually gets to his point it reminds me a lot of Ian Abernethy's take on Karate Kata. But I don't buy it. I don't think these dumb-looking punches in Kung Fu forms are really hidden grappling moves or collar grabs or whatever, I think they're just genuine dumb-looking punches :) I think a lot of these 'traditional' forms are really not that old, and created to teach the masses quickly, hence they are just dumb-looking punches. But what do I know? I can't even speak Chinese :) Although I did enjoy his righteous outrage at the foreigners not respecting his cutlure. 8-)

I believe the style is Changquan (long fist). Did you watch his explanation of moves video and disagree with his interpretations? I don't have an opinion. Just trying to understand what you are saying.

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Dec 16, 2019

A classic traditional northern style routine with emphasis on wrestling and chin-na(grappling ) skills.

A traditional Chinese martial arts routine is like a coded zip file, without the right key and the know-how to decrypt it, a routine is just a pile of fancy moves and imaginary applications that has no sense to the real world:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9lgPsOc8MM
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Re: Interesting guy: Chinese kung-fu routines are useless Pt.1

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:09 am

Well my take on it is a bit subtle - I like what he is doing, but I don't quite buy into the idea that these are the "real" applications. I think they're just one possible take on it. Somebody good can make anything 'work'.
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Re: Interesting guy: Chinese kung-fu routines are useless Pt.1

Postby Overlord on Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:13 pm

I love Lianbuquan and Gongliquan. They are simply awesome!
I treat them more hitting than wrestling. ;D
Last edited by Overlord on Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Interesting guy: Chinese kung-fu routines are useless Pt.1

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:21 pm

They are from a school called Chang-Hung (short for Long Fist & Hung Gar) founded by a late Taiwanese grandmaster named Chen Ching-He 陳清河 who was an expert in both. He also cross-trained in quite a few other styles and incorporated internal elements into the system. The guy was the real deal.

After he passed away 6 years ago, I believe the current chief instructor is the middle-aged teacher in the clip Marvin posted. The school's main branch is located in downtown Taipei and open to the public, so anyone who is interested is welcome to go and check them out.
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Re: Interesting guy: Chinese kung-fu routines are useless Pt.1

Postby roger hao on Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:30 pm

I second the emotion about Gongliquan.

Opening move is you are grabbed by 2 people and you break free

Double fists is a thrusting grab and then forced pull back to the side with a kick to off balance for a throw.
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Re: Interesting guy: Chinese kung-fu routines are useless Pt.1

Postby Trick on Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:56 am

Quickly had a look at Ian Abernathy’s webpage, many good articles there. But a little too technical oriented, even the ‘awareness’ article i found to be just ‘technical’....
If talking Karate Kata , while the ‘different’ styles about a little more than a hundred years ago in Okinawa where not at all that different but the ‘big changes’ where about to come around that time when karate was being introduced to mainland Japan.
In order to attract attention and compete with the popular Judo and Kendo it had to introduce the element of competition, it borrowed Judo’s Gi and their Obi grades, and based it’s way for competition from Kendo..
With this some technical elements from the Katas where put lesser and lesser focus on...
However, many see for example Shotokan Kata as watered down because of this, I personally now see them as evolved, or possibly revolved back(but not fully) to an original idea.
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Re: Interesting guy: Chinese kung-fu routines are useless Pt.1

Postby Formosa Neijia on Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:00 pm

The anti-white stuff at the beginning was unnecessary. I know several white guys and other foreigners that have excellent kungfu and who can fight with it but don't speak a word of Chinese. It can add some understanding but is completely unnecessary. He seems to think being ethnically Chinese is what leads to a deep understanding of kungfu but later contradicts himself by saying a lot of negative things about Chinese kungfu teachers.

Judging from his comments about "kungfu teachers are not honest people" I'm guessing he has discovered a few things about his own style. Half of it is sketchy. None of the hung gar looks like what is practiced in Hong Kong for a reason. Finding out you have been practicing sketchy material even in Taiwan is a real downer, I agree from experience.

Some of the confusion though is related to the long fist forms they do. Long fist is not strong on application, it's mostly exercise. Many of the moves in long fist are deliberately exaggerated to fully develop the body and long fist does it better than nearly anything else. One of my teachers credited his daily long fist practice with his youthfulness, not his neijia. But it is very weak in application, which is why it has been blended with other styles like mantis for so long.

Starting at 11:40 he really had some strong things to say, even calling teachers pathetic, but his points were spot on. Many bad decisions have been made by previous teachers and the situation now may not be reversable. I feel like I'm in the same boat as him. Hope we all find a way forward.
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Re: Interesting guy: Chinese kung-fu routines are useless Pt.1

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:09 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:The anti-white stuff at the beginning was unnecessary. I know several white guys and other foreigners that have excellent kungfu and who can fight with it but don't speak a word of Chinese. It can add some understanding but is completely unnecessary. He seems to think being ethnically Chinese is what leads to a deep understanding of kungfu but later contradicts himself by saying a lot of negative things about Chinese kungfu teachers.

Judging from his comments about "kungfu teachers are not honest people" I'm guessing he has discovered a few things about his own style. Half of it is sketchy. None of the hung gar looks like what is practiced in Hong Kong for a reason. Finding out you have been practicing sketchy material even in Taiwan is a real downer, I agree from experience.

Some of the confusion though is related to the long fist forms they do. Long fist is not strong on application, it's mostly exercise. Many of the moves in long fist are deliberately exaggerated to fully develop the body and long fist does it better than nearly anything else. One of my teachers credited his daily long fist practice with his youthfulness, not his neijia. But it is very weak in application, which is why it has been blended with other styles like mantis for so long.

Starting at 11:40 he really had some strong things to say, even calling teachers pathetic, but his points were spot on. Many bad decisions have been made by previous teachers and the situation now may not be reversable. I feel like I'm in the same boat as him. Hope we all find a way forward.


Nice post - I agree.
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Re: Interesting guy: Chinese kung-fu routines are useless Pt.1

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:55 am

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Re: Interesting guy: Chinese kung-fu routines are useless Pt.1

Postby Franklin on Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:32 pm

why do they have a boat fender hanging up (next to the heavy bags)?
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Re: Interesting guy: Chinese kung-fu routines are useless Pt.1

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:20 pm

Franklin wrote:why do they have a boat fender hanging up (next to the heavy bags)?

Do you mean the slip ball, punching bag hybrid? It's used for punching and defensive head movement.

The 12″ Head Hunter, a slip ball, punching bag hybrid is one of our classics for fighters– and for good reason. The 12″ Head Hunter is compact, and it’s training goes beyond slipping. You can get in all your punches, kicks, and elbows and all with more realistic movement:

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