Tim Cartmell: CMAs, BJJ, Self-Defense and teaching

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Tim Cartmell: CMAs, BJJ, Self-Defense and teaching

Postby Tom on Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:32 pm

Tim Cartmell covers a wide variety of topics of interest, including how he developed his approach to teaching, in this podcast conversation with Gray Estrada from July 2019: "In this episode, we talk about bio-mechanical structure in martial arts, how that relates to both health and fighting and the key ideas to keep in mind as newcomers explore martial arts"



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHmj5Fk4MlY
Last edited by Tom on Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Needless to say, this is just my opinion. Please feel free to disregard it. ;D
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Re: Tim Cartmell: CMAs, BJJ, Self-Defense and teaching

Postby everything on Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:43 pm

He always speaks with down-to-earth, common sense, and logical appeal. I like it. Couldn't watch entire podcast, but maybe later...

Wonder what his daily training is like as he gets toward 60ish (?).
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Tim Cartmell: CMAs, BJJ, Self-Defense and teaching

Postby nicklinjm on Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:55 pm

Didn't manage to listen to the whole thing, but love his balanced, common sense approach to martial arts in general, his students are v lucky to have him as a teacher!
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Re: Tim Cartmell: CMAs, BJJ, Self-Defense and teaching

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:55 pm

I like Tim - always good stuff.

There's something he says at the start like it's obvious "martial arts were created for fighting". I think that needs a closer look, as there is a more subtle view...

This was just posted on Kung Fu Tea:

https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2020/ ... X4AMfWagng

“If it is necessary to debunk the Bodhidharma myth since it is historically false, we must also be wary of the modern materialist impulse to tear aside the veil of myth to uncover the real martial arts beneath. The truth is that for most Chinese practitioners of the arts the myths were real enough, and spiritual goals, in any case, are more central to the historical martial arts than actual combat skills. Rather than viewing myths and legends as effluvia from the “real martial arts,” it is more accurate to see the martial arts as a relatively minor by-product of the Buddho-Taoist popular religion and the medieval immortality cult.”

Charles Holcombe, 1990, “Theatre of Combat: A Critical Look at Chinese Martial Arts.”
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Re: Tim Cartmell: CMAs, BJJ, Self-Defense and teaching

Postby Giles on Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:24 am

Good interview. Nothing I would disagree with there, some nice insights, and all expressed very clearly and succinctly. And entertainingly.
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Re: Tim Cartmell: CMAs, BJJ, Self-Defense and teaching

Postby Tom on Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:09 pm

GrahamB wrote:I like Tim - always good stuff.

There's something he says at the start like it's obvious "martial arts were created for fighting". I think that needs a closer look, as there is a more subtle view...


I don't think there is any conflict between Tim's perspective and what Holcombe is getting at in the "Kung Fu Tea" perspective. If you raised the historical/mythos issue with him, Tim would candidly acknowledge the accretion of mythology, symbolism, dance and philosophy that overlay "traditional" Asian martial arts--he has in conversation with me. Tim's consistent and more limited-in-scope perspective is that the core physical training and movements of "traditional" Asian arts as initially developed were intended for fighting. In that contest it may be more accurate to refer to the core teaching as a martial "system" rather than an "art."

The founders of the CIMAs did not necessarily consider what they taught their first disciples to be some abstract "art." This is certainly true in what Chen Changxing passed to Yang Luchan, or what Li Luoneng absorbed and synthesized from the Dai family and Guo Weihan to build on his pre-existing combative skills base (including a version of tongbeiquan) to pursue the business of bodyguard and caravan protection. Did Dong Haichuan teach 64 palms on a circle with close correlation to the Yijing? There is considerable consensus that he taught basic Luohan for conditioning and martial shenfa, then worked to train his first disciples on intuitive movement and tactical principles of baguazhang, turning the circle and a few basic palm changes. The multiplicity of palm changes and wide variety of weapons came in with the second generation of baguazhang disciples, based on the scant historical evidence available from that time. For example, Cheng Tinghua did not teach a system of 64 palm changes; these were not worked out until the 1920s by his family and disciples in his hometown. Liuhebafa is built on the martial foundation of Lu Hong Ba Si, which Wu Yihui trained and then integrated into the system he was creating.


All of these systems were created for fighting . . . on the Internet. ;)
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Re: Tim Cartmell: CMAs, BJJ, Self-Defense and teaching

Postby GrahamB on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:27 pm

Tom,

"Tim would candidly acknowledge the accretion of mythology, symbolism, dance and philosophy that overlay "traditional" Asian martial arts"

Aye, there's the rub. Overlay. As if the martial is the true origin, and the rest is overlayed on top? That's a subtle difference to what I believe Holcombe was referring to.

In the years following the Boxer Rebellion (essntially modern times) I think that yes, the Chinese martial arts became separted from their larger social complex and it was forgotten.

I think that's the key phrase from Ben's article, for me, "Chinese martial arts exist as one part of a larger social complex", but maybe it should be changed to "existed".

I see you've started another thread on it so we should probably move the discussion over there.
Last edited by GrahamB on Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:37 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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