Anti grappling defence

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Anti grappling defence

Postby GrahamB on Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:50 am

I think you can learn a lot from watching really high level MMA, especially on this subject. This is some of the best anti-grappling advice for the striker you'll find - all can be broken down into principles as well as techniques.

( I also think the best way to learn how to counter grappling is to learn how to grapple to some degree. I don't think you'll ever 'get it' unless you do that).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpidY5teuQ8

The NHS is not drained by migrants, but sustained by them.
Heretics podcast | The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 12351
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Anti grappling defence

Postby C.J.W. on Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:12 am

Very nice. Also find it interesting that while he appears to have a solid background in wrestling, he's chosen to focus on his stand-up striking game instead.
C.J.W.
Wuji
 
Posts: 1849
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:02 am

Re: Anti grappling defence

Postby GrahamB on Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:44 am

I think it's the Jiujitsu factor. You can be good at wrestling and end up on the ground with a skilled jiujitsu guy and you've lost, despite getting the takedown. Bobby Knuckles is primerily a striker, so he wants to keep the fight in his strongest area where he'll win.

The recent Ben Askren vs Demian Maia is a case in point of elite level Wrestler vs elite level BJJ under MMA rules. All it took was one bad decision from Askren (to engage on the ground) and it was over.
Last edited by GrahamB on Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
The NHS is not drained by migrants, but sustained by them.
Heretics podcast | The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 12351
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Anti grappling defence

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:19 am

C.J.W. wrote:Very nice. Also find it interesting that while he appears to have a solid background in wrestling, he's chosen to focus on his stand-up striking game instead.

I wouldn't call it a traditional "solid background in wrestling." Whittaker started in Goju ryu karate, Hapkido. then MMA. In 2015 (age 25), he started competing in amateur wrestling. However, there are several fighters in MMA with traditional wrestling backgrounds that prefer to stand up and strike.

Excerpt from "Robert Whittaker (fighter):"
"Wikipedia wrote:Whittaker's father enrolled Robert, aged seven, and his brother in a Goju-ryu Karate school, to encourage them in self-discipline and self-defence.[13][14] After training in the discipline for a little over eight years, and earning his black belt, his father offered him the chance to change to another sport or drop Karate entirely. While his brother decided to drop out, Robert chose to switch to Hapkido[15] gym run by Henry Perez, following his move to Menai.[13][16] Not long afterwards, Perez transformed his gym into an MMA gym. Having no other choice, Whittaker began training in MMA and was immediately hooked, choosing MMA as his preferred sport over Rugby League.[14]

mainevent
May 1, 2013


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPBXyOaDhH8
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2167
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Anti grappling defence

Postby Bhassler on Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:34 am

I enjoyed this. There are a lot of concepts there that are similar to stuff that comes out in rougher tuishou-- it could be a good template for taiji folk who want to work on not getting their head beat in by the first drunk MMA bro they piss off in a bar.

Re:
GrahamB wrote:( I also think the best way to learn how to counter grappling is to learn how to grapple to some degree. I don't think you'll ever 'get it' unless you do that).


I think a big part of that is that if you've never worked with a legit grappler, you don't know what you're defending against. If you and your partners aren't at least competent at a beginner level, then it's hard to know if the things you 'discover' in practice actually work, or if they're reliant on bad technique by your partner.
Bhassler
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3204
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:05 pm
Location: xxxxxxx

Re: Anti grappling defence

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:57 am

Bhassler wrote:I enjoyed this. There are a lot of concepts there that are similar to stuff that comes out in rougher tuishou-- it could be a good template for taiji folk who want to work on not getting their head beat in by the first drunk MMA bro they piss off in a bar.

This video might be closer to "rougher tuishou" than the OP takedown defense video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksiD-NcxwFs
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2167
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Anti grappling defence

Postby dspyrido on Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:06 pm

GrahamB wrote:I think it's the Jiujitsu factor. You can be good at wrestling and end up on the ground with a skilled jiujitsu guy and you've lost, despite getting the takedown. Bobby Knuckles is primerily a striker, so he wants to keep the fight in his strongest area where he'll win.

The recent Ben Askren vs Demian Maia is a case in point of elite level Wrestler vs elite level BJJ under MMA rules. All it took was one bad decision from Askren (to engage on the ground) and it was over.


It's not. Whittaker is a great striker who became a great wrestler. With that he took on BJJ guys and wrestlers in MMA. The video jumps into the defences that he merged. Rightly so but it glossed over his greatest defence which is his striking and it's ability to flow into wrestling counters.

Against good strikers like Adesanya, Thompson & McGee he struggled.

I will even put down his latest change in his game plan against Adesanya was a tactic in desperation that came from bad advice when he switched to a BJJ focused gym. He was not confident in his striking so attempted to rush in and setup take downs. Adesanya just did what any good striker will do and applied the best "anti grappling" of beating his brains out. Sadly it he keeps going down the BJJ path this may see him quietly disappearing from MMA because he will never beat Adesanya this way.

Good striking and good wrestling will stuff up most take down attempts. Askren is a good example of someone who is a poor striker but relies too much on smothering. The tactic worked against several BJJ black belts like Aoki and Lima but ultimately is a dangerous game. His secret is most likely genetic (+ wrestling intensity) but in the end time and impact will ravage anyone doing that approach.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: Anti grappling defence

Postby dspyrido on Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:18 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Bhassler wrote:I enjoyed this. There are a lot of concepts there that are similar to stuff that comes out in rougher tuishou-- it could be a good template for taiji folk who want to work on not getting their head beat in by the first drunk MMA bro they piss off in a bar.

This video might be closer to "rougher tuishou" than the OP takedown defense video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksiD-NcxwFs


Although I agree that merging Greco Roman and boxing makes for a damn hard take down defence artist the thing that still misses is the use of the legs.

Whittaker did a great job of keeping a beast like Romero at bay with kicks (especially to the legs). Jones does exactly that until he feels like shooting in.

To stop a take down from the outside it's good footwork and striking that is generally hand and foot.

When inside it's like Greco Roman mixed in with short range strikes like knees, elbows and even the shoulders. Plus the big freestyle moves - know how to post, circle and sprawl.

On the ground is as shown in the Whittaker video. Scramble, control and roll.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: Anti grappling defence

Postby GrahamB on Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:59 pm

dspyrido wrote:
GrahamB wrote:I think it's the Jiujitsu factor. You can be good at wrestling and end up on the ground with a skilled jiujitsu guy and you've lost, despite getting the takedown. Bobby Knuckles is primerily a striker, so he wants to keep the fight in his strongest area where he'll win.

The recent Ben Askren vs Demian Maia is a case in point of elite level Wrestler vs elite level BJJ under MMA rules. All it took was one bad decision from Askren (to engage on the ground) and it was over.


It's not. Whittaker is a great striker who became a great wrestler. With that he took on BJJ guys and wrestlers in MMA. The video jumps into the defences that he merged. Rightly so but it glossed over his greatest defence which is his striking and it's ability to flow into wrestling counters.

Against good strikers like Adesanya, Thompson & McGee he struggled.

I will even put down his latest change in his game plan against Adesanya was a tactic in desperation that came from bad advice when he switched to a BJJ focused gym. He was not confident in his striking so attempted to rush in and setup take downs. Adesanya just did what any good striker will do and applied the best "anti grappling" of beating his brains out. Sadly it he keeps going down the BJJ path this may see him quietly disappearing from MMA because he will never beat Adesanya this way.

Good striking and good wrestling will stuff up most take down attempts. Askren is a good example of someone who is a poor striker but relies too much on smothering. The tactic worked against several BJJ black belts like Aoki and Lima but ultimately is a dangerous game. His secret is most likely genetic (+ wrestling intensity) but in the end time and impact will ravage anyone doing that approach.


OK, I've read this twice now and I can't work out what you're talking about.

I will even put down his latest change in his game plan against Adesanya was a tactic in desperation that came from bad advice when he switched to a BJJ focused gym. He was not confident in his striking so attempted to rush in and setup take downs. Adesanya just did what any good striker will do and applied the best "anti grappling" of beating his brains out. Sadly it he keeps going down the BJJ path this may see him quietly disappearing from MMA because he will never beat Adesanya this way.


"He was not confident in his striking so attempted to rush in and setup take downs."

Here are the stats from that fight:

http://ufcstats.com/fight-details/2556b7520536ce1d

As you can see - takedowns attempted by both fighters is zero.

"Sadly it he keeps going down the BJJ path this may see him quietly disappearing from MMA because he will never beat Adesanya this way"

Totally at a loss as to how this is "going down the BJJ path"

Seriously, what are you talking about?

We're talking about this fight here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUqZSAfuV5Q



Zero grappling - just two amazing strikers with very different styles doing what they do best.

"Adesanya just did what any good striker will do and applied the best "anti grappling" of beating his brains out. "

Zero takedown attempts by Bobbie. Pretty easy to apply anti grappling to somebody who is not grappling ;D

Care to re-evaluate your assesement?
Last edited by GrahamB on Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:39 pm, edited 5 times in total.
The NHS is not drained by migrants, but sustained by them.
Heretics podcast | The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 12351
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Anti grappling defence

Postby marvin8 on Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:35 pm

Never mind the dirty boxing video I posted. I didn't really make sense, not sure what I was thinking.

Here is a takedown defense analysis of Woodley vs Demian Maia to make up. Analysis starts at 22:00, "Monday Morning Analyst: UFC 214, Tyron Woodley's Insane Takedown Defense:"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MLIhA3PX7s&t=22m0s
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2167
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Anti grappling defence

Postby dspyrido on Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:52 am

GrahamB wrote:Care to re-evaluate your assesement?


Happy to. Tried to use the link you provided but unfortunately the original poster does not like my country.

I assume it's the full fight so I decided to have another look since I've only seen it once live & was disappointed. Disappointed because I like both fighters but was supporting the home boy & didn't want him taken out so early.

Watching this time I have the luxury of slow motion. At several points Rob does the level change which looks like the starting point of a shoot but he launches a long jab. He does this at times with Romero but never this low. Then his follow up move which to me looked like he was reaching for a clinch but on rewatching it looks like he was attempting a stockton slap but pulled it half way as Adesanya was just never there.

Now comes to real problem. I decided to rewatch the yoel, souza & thompson (for balance) fights and he performed differently. He would throw jabs but not with such a low level change which made them faster and if he came into the pocket he would attempt to clear out fast. I am guessing he was more cautious about trading with guys like romero who would knock his block off if he was there too long.

Result - I'm rewatching this fight & sadly I have to say I don't know what he was thinking. I am back to his shift in the coaching team (he swapped to a gracie gym). The options here are:

1. He was trying to head hunt a guy who is a capable of dodging bullets matrix style
2. Robert just got rusty with his time out from UFC
3. Perhaps it's age or lifestyle (although he said he was the fittest he has ever been)
4. The fight team he moved to just did not get him to spend enough time applying a striking method that would work (e.g. look at how tyson took out giants)

Either way I don't get why he was doing what he was doing against Adesanya.

Now if he did try doing take downs on Adesanya I doubt he would have had any success either.

To quote:

To stop a take down from the outside it's good footwork and striking that is generally hand and foot.


And Adesanya is a master of it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmPR0t4VETM

And even if he got into range:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O97VR7sKng

The ultimate in anti-grappling has to be just not being there at the time to be grappled with. For that I am backing the Adesanya approach of stuffing up the grappler before they even get in.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: Anti grappling defence

Postby GrahamB on Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:03 am

So, what you mean through that lengthy elaboration is that you got it completely wrong but can't admit it.

Ok, don't worry, I get it.
The NHS is not drained by migrants, but sustained by them.
Heretics podcast | The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 12351
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Anti grappling defence

Postby marvin8 on Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:17 am

dspyrido wrote:Result - I'm rewatching this fight & sadly I have to say I don't know what he was thinking. I am back to his shift in the coaching team (he swapped to a gracie gym). The options here are:

1. He was trying to head hunt a guy who is a capable of dodging bullets matrix style
2. Robert just got rusty with his time out from UFC
3. Perhaps it's age or lifestyle (although he said he was the fittest he has ever been)
4. The fight team he moved to just did not get him to spend enough time applying a striking method that would work (e.g. look at how tyson took out giants)

Either way I don't get why he was doing what he was doing against Adesanya.

Now if he did try doing take downs on Adesanya I doubt he would have had any success either.

To quote:

To stop a take down from the outside it's good footwork and striking that is generally hand and foot.


And Adesanya is a master of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmPR0t4VETM

And even if he got into range:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O97VR7sKng

The ultimate in anti-grappling has to be just not being there at the time to be grappled with. For that I am backing the Adesanya approach of stuffing up the grappler before they even get in.

As GrahamB points out, there was no grappling attempts on Rob's's part and striking wasn't helping him. In the second round, Rob could have attempted a takedown when Adesanya was doing his matrix style. But, Rob continued to lean out of position after a right hand. Having studied him, Adesanya positioned, controlled and countered him.

Option 5, Adesanya's skills, team (coach Eugene Bareman at City Kickboxing) and gameplan were just better. In 2019, Volkanovski, Adesanya's teammate, defeated Holloway to become a UFC champion (featherweight) as well.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2167
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Anti grappling defence

Postby dspyrido on Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:52 pm

GrahamB wrote:So, what you mean through that lengthy elaboration is that you got it completely wrong but can't admit it.

Ok, don't worry, I get it.


I thought I did but ok if that's what makes you feel nice and hard then no problemo. I hope that makes your day. You seem to need it.

marvin8 wrote:Option 5, Adesanya's skills, team (coach Eugene Bareman at City Kickboxing) and gameplan were just better. In 2019, Volkanovski, Adesanya's teammate, defeated Holloway to become a UFC champion (featherweight) as well.


I can see that. Volkanovski as a fellow local did a great job of handling Holloway. I haven't seen Robert switch coaching teams but after that fight I hope he does.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2348
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am


Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests