Incense Shop Luohan Quan

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Incense Shop Luohan Quan

Postby chenyaolong on Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:16 am

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Re: Incense Shop Luohan Quan

Postby Bao on Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:54 am

Loved this episode. He seems very generous and has great enthusiasm. Great to see him showing off his understanding of “tong bei”, power generation from “through the back”. :)
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Re: Incense Shop Luohan Quan

Postby Subitai on Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:22 am

Thanks for posting it...good video.

I've said allot of what he's saying on this forum b4. Hollow the chest and round the back to make it a bow...and the dan tien is full.

When the chest is hollow (back is round with separated shoulders) and the dan tien is full...points to more internal style

* A good example of this is when doing internal triangle footwork: "Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma" (bad spelling sorry) but basically "Two Character abduct (lift, capture) the sheep horse Stance" That's a mouth full..I know.

However when the chest is full (puffed up)...the dan tien is usually relaxed or cannot also be full at the same time...points to more external style



Hallmarks I think of other styles of CMA. I know for sure that i've mentioned Ha Say Fu Hung style is done with these type of basics.




========================================================================================
Now I have a question about what was said in the video...from approximately: 8:00 - 8:08 sec
========================================================================================
chenyaolong, did you pull his arm down (ala similar to an armdrag) and say: " ...im bigger than you ___ " "There's nothing you can do" " So i've won"? I couldn't fully catch the audio?

Did the sifu mean to say that If you pull his arm down that far successfully... then he's screwed?
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Re: Incense Shop Luohan Quan

Postby Bao on Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:57 am

I've said allot of what he's saying on this forum b4. Hollow the chest and round the back to make it a bow...and the dan tien is full.
... Hallmarks I think of other styles of CMA.


True, but there's more to "hollow the chest and round the back to make it a bow". Look at the guy in the vid showing the flexibility of his back and telling Chenyalong that he cannot open the back. Interesting, isn't it, that you can look at these two and really see something that the long time practitioner can do and the other cannot?

So this is more than just keeping the back in a certain posture, what he shows here is about using the shoulder blade area/scapula in an active manner, through movement not through a fixed posture.

Wrote a long post about this issue not a long time ago, so I am happy to see more examples of teachers who can actually show this. I included a quote from an interview with He Jinghan:

“Q – You just now referred to shoulders. Could you explain how to effectively use your shoulders?

A – Most people think that the arms start from the shoulders. In fact the shoulders have two locations. Close up to the neck there is the area which takes the load when we are carrying something heavy – or stretch to take out our wallet. However the arm in fact starts at the shoulder blade in the back; this enables the arm to stretch across the body. So if we want to use the arm effectively we must first effectively use the shoulder blade. But this part of the body has for a long time been overlooked by most people.

Q – So the arm can be thought of as similar to a chicken’s wing.

A – This is a very good analogy. The root of a chicken’s wing is like a human shoulder blade. When a chicken flaps its wings it uses this part.

...

... Joints enable us to move easily. However, they can degenerate if they are immobilized for a long time or if their turning range is restricted.

..."



Won't spam the forum with more links to my blog, but anyone can easily find the article and rest of the quote in "recent posts" through the link in my signature. :)
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Re: Incense Shop Luohan Quan

Postby Subitai on Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:19 pm

Bao....I spoke about a bow...but when did I ever suggest that it was stagnate or un-moving?

Perhaps you were just speaking in general.

Anyway, a bow is meant to be drawn and shot...thus flex and release. I would have thought that was obvious.
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Re: Incense Shop Luohan Quan

Postby Bao on Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:38 am

@Subitai, 99,99999% of the time, “Hollow the chest and round the back to make it a bow” = ba bei han Xiong = is understood as a stationary posture, there is nothing in your post that suggests otherwise.
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Re: Incense Shop Luohan Quan

Postby Subitai on Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:16 pm

Bao on Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:38 am

@Subitai, 99,99999% of the time, “Hollow the chest and round the back to make it a bow” = ba bei han Xiong = is understood as a stationary posture, there is nothing in your post that suggests otherwise.


Maybe you speak for your level of understanding and your family kung fu but its not mine.
Also, I shouldn't have to suggest anything Bao... The flexing of the bow is in the video i demonstrated. Just because i'm bigger and FATTER ;D than the other sifu don't think for moment that my upper and lower body are not flexing and releasing.

My lineage is just as decent as anyone's on this board...never have i heard being stationary as a basic. Only at the extreme beginner time when 1st checking posture and structure...then it absolutely must be alive.

Besides, who the heck would ever think that stationary would be good for fighting?

* a bow...flexes (bends) and releases
* 5 animal system.. all are alive
* all sit on the framework of "mah" = horse
- a horse is alive and we're taught everything is moving
* the very notion of a guy holding a power stance stationary...has nothing to do with fighting.

All good Hung Kyun is same skill as i described...alive. Open and close.

As a joke...i'm trying to perform Tit Sin...iron wire as you described, "stationary".... IMPOSSIBLE !

So now in case you didn't know, i'm telling you outright that's how it is.
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Re: Incense Shop Luohan Quan

Postby chenyaolong on Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:36 pm

In Taiji Mantis there are some instances we generate power from rounding the back, but it is only transitional and not as exaggerated at Master Lin was doing in the video... hence him saying I wasn't doing it. The difference between me and him was he was really stretching his back to the extreme.
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Re: Incense Shop Luohan Quan

Postby Formosa Neijia on Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:24 pm


Considering how often the luohan quan is mentioned in the Bubishi, I was a little surprised that you didn't get in touch with Liang Shouzhong 梁守忠. His VCDs back in the day were some of the clearest of this Fujian art and he's pretty accessible from what I have heard. He's more widely known for ziranmenquan but as you can tell, his luohan is quite clear.

About the bow/back mechanics, it's more obvious in some versions of Fujian/Guangdong material than in others. Liang's version of luohan uses it but it isn't as obvious as the "incense shop" teacher's versions. Also some teachers over-emphasize back flexion without developing the corresponding "release the bow" that involves extension of the spine and expansion of the chest. Not balancing out the flexion with extension can lead to low back problems, lack of upward breath movement into the chest to fully develop the qigong, and a lack of pulling skills in practical fighting situations IMO.
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Re: Incense Shop Luohan Quan

Postby chenyaolong on Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:15 pm

Unfortunately, I hadn't seen his stuff until after the trip. I will definitely be returning to Fujian to dig deeper, now I've got a feel for the place and some good contacts. Hoping to go to Yongtai, Putian and Jishi Shan next time.
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Re: Incense Shop Luohan Quan

Postby aamc on Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:48 am

With my very ignorant understanding of body mechanics, when people say you curve the back aren't you really relaxing the back and engaging the muscles across your chest and groin? Wouldn't it make more sense to say that, rather than other way round.By way of example, a bicep curl tells you exactly what to do. You don't say curve the back of the arm?
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Re: Incense Shop Luohan Quan

Postby Bao on Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:59 am

aamc wrote:With my very ignorant understanding of body mechanics, when people say you curve the back aren't you really relaxing the back and engaging the muscles across your chest and groin? Wouldn't it make more sense to say that, rather than other way round.By way of example, a bicep curl tells you exactly what to do. You don't say curve the back of the arm?


When the back curves upward, the dantian expands, so that is correct, IME. But it’s the back that should be active and do the movement.

People mean different things. What personally mean is what I wrote above quoting Mr He Jinhan:

“ Most people think that the arms start from the shoulders. In fact the shoulders have two locations. Close up to the neck there is the area which takes the load when we are carrying something heavy – or stretch to take out our wallet. However the arm in fact starts at the shoulder blade in the back; this enables the arm to stretch across the body. So if we want to use the arm effectively we must first effectively use the shoulder blade.

By using the shoulder blade I mean to use it active, actually to use the muscles between the shoulder blades to engage the shoulder blades and the whole arm. But the movement of ba bei han xiong, pluck/lift the back to hollow chest in my tradition starts by expanding the lower ribs, so the expansion and contraction of the whole back is coordinated in one single movement.
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Re: Incense Shop Luohan Quan

Postby aamc on Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:02 pm

Okay, I think before I can go any further, I think some nomenclature that we need to clarify around curving the back, as it curves in two directions and going from your description I actually think we might mean different things. So when curving the back I mean spinal flexion, from your description I'm guessing your describing spinal extension.

To follow - on from your comment, the arm starts from the shoulder blade. I'm sort of half convinced, its a simplification of what is happening. To use your example, if I want to take my wallet out my pocket, I first need to engage my deltoids, serratus anterior and pectoralis major to put my hand in my front pocket. Before I can engage my shoulder to take my wallet out. Its no big thing, IMHO.
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Re: Incense Shop Luohan Quan

Postby Bao on Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:58 pm

aamc wrote:Okay, I think before I can go any further, I think some nomenclature that we need to clarify around curving the back, as it curves in two directions and going from your description I actually think we might mean different things. So when curving the back I mean spinal flexion, from your description I'm guessing your describing spinal extension.


Both are valid examples as long as you don’t treat them as passive or dead weight. Thought I was going to restrain myself from spamming this thread or go too much off topic, but here you are, you have several different examples here:
https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... chi-chuan/
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Re: Incense Shop Luohan Quan

Postby Formosa Neijia on Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:28 pm

aamc wrote:With my very ignorant understanding of body mechanics, when people say you curve the back aren't you really relaxing the back and engaging the muscles across your chest and groin? Wouldn't it make more sense to say that, rather than other way round.By way of example, a bicep curl tells you exactly what to do. You don't say curve the back of the arm?


This is a good question since it shows the difference between north/south CMA extension and flexion of the back and what a lot of people aren't spelling out clearly enough. In many of the southern systems, you are actually CONTRACTING the stomach muscles (dantian) on the rounded back posture, which the shape obviously helps with contracting. This contracts the breath/energy as well. Then extension release "the bow."

The problem I've seen is that in most northern styles, the dantian/stomach is not physically contracted, meaning people are actually trying to power these moves with their spine, in this case their lower back. This causes a lot of low back problems since they are using spinal flexion/extension rather than abdominal flexion/extension. The tuck in of the lower back needs muscle support in order for it not to hurt the lumbar spine. Without muscle involvement, your lower back is very vulnerable.

The problem is that abdominal flexion/extension and spinal flexion/extension look the same in some movements, causing a lot of confusion. This leads people to walk around and do their forms with their tail tucked between their legs because they weren't taught that extension and flexion are both needed.

additionally, using a pull-in type motion of the thighs in order to grip the ground makes sense if you're using the stomach muscles to power the move since mild flexion of the leg adductors helps stabilize the lower abs. But in absence of squeezing the ab muscles, pulling in with the leg adductors (think of that pigeon toed wing chun stance) will simply push the low back out more and possibly increase the risk of hurting the low back.

All of this is compounded by long pole exercises done for power using lots of spinal flexion, especially by people that sit in chairs 10-12 hours and push a mouse around all day.
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