the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

I always tell people -- especially TJ/XY/BG guys with "neija superiority complex" -- that southern styles are actually more internal than northern styles and TJ/XY/BG at beginner's level because they usually provide explicit instruction on breathing and qigong training from the getgo.

Northern styles and TJ/XY/BG tend to simply teach beginners to "breathe naturally" or "relax and focus on the dantian" and do not get down to the nitty gritty until practitioners have reached higher levels -- or become indoor disciples.

So reverse breathing and dantian contraction work are certainly found in northern styles and TJ/XY/BG as well, just not openly taught in detail to everyone.

C.J.W. wrote:I always tell people -- especially TJ/XY/BG guys with "neija superiority complex" -- that southern styles are actually more internal than northern styles and TJ/XY/BG at beginner's level because they usually provide explicit instruction on breathing and qigong training from the getgo.

Northern styles and TJ/XY/BG tend to simply teach beginners to "breathe naturally" or "relax and focus on the dantian" and do not get down to the nitty gritty until practitioners have reached higher levels -- or become indoor disciples.

So reverse breathing and dantian contraction work are certainly found in northern styles and TJ/XY/BG as well, just not openly taught in detail to everyone.

Agreed. The superiority complex has to go. I see zero basis for it. The Fujian styles start people on the jin training right away,and some IMA never even get to it. I've come to the conclusion that when people tell you to "breath naturally" that's basically code for "I don't know anything" or "I'm not going to teach you anything."

The IMAs TALK about the dantian a lot but almost never get around to actually doing anything with it. Many southern styles start with that and somehow get branded "external." In fact I sometimes get the impression that working directly with the dantian itself is somehow considered external because it involves physical work instead of theory. IMO the vast overwhelming majority of IMA people are themselves doing a purely external practice because all they are doing is forms and very little actual internal training. Basing the neigong on the YiJing, the Neijing Tu (that painting), or the Luo River diagrams (as many northern systems do )which no one understands or can explain doesn't exactly help.

And becoming an indoor disciple in IMA doesn't always lead to this stuff being taught, for various reasons I'll leave up to the imagination.

TJ/XY/BG tend to simply teach beginners to "breathe naturally" or "relax and focus on the dantian"

"Breathing naturally" is a skill and not what most people do. Most people hold up and tense their breath, and do breath shallow. Forcing the breathing in different patterns will have a great short term effect, but usually not directly affect the practitioner's daily, common breathing. When they have done their power breathing, they usually just go home and back to their usual routines. IMA teaches the body in a way that will affect all of the practitioner's life. If you want real transformation, you need to develop and grow slowly.

Bao wrote:

TJ/XY/BG tend to simply teach beginners to "breathe naturally" or "relax and focus on the dantian"

"Breathing naturally" is a skill and not what most people do. Most people hold up and tense their breath, and do breath shallow. Forcing the breathing in different patterns will have a great short term effect, but usually not directly affect the practitioner's daily, common breathing. When they have done their power breathing, they usually just go home and back to their usual routines. IMA teaches the body in a way that will affect all of the practitioner's life. If you want real transformation, you need to develop and grow slowly.

this would seem to be right. to breath is naturally for us, but many stray away from natural breathing because of stress that causing tension, (re)learning to relax properly in action would seem to be the way to go