Xie Quan has the missing moves seen in Chen TJQ Yi Lu

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Xie Quan has the missing moves seen in Chen TJQ Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:47 pm



The set I am talking about is not seen until 1:15 and a piece of each of the 6 sections in shown until 1:55/

I have already proved in my book "Hidden History of the Chinese Internal Martial Arts" (available on Amazon) that Chen TJQ Yi Lu set closely follows in the same sequences all the postural movements of the Shaolin Taizhu Quan 32 postures Chang Quan set, What's missing is from this Shaolin set but found in Chen TJQ Yi Lu is a series of postural movements found in the set shown in this video. All the missing movement are found IN SEQUENCE in the form shown in this video. THUS, Chen Yi Lu is a combination of Shaolin TaiZhu Quan and this Shaolin Xin Yi Hu Quan set (also known as Xie Quan).

In 1984, Jia Zhaoxuan published a book in Henan province titled Shaolin Wushu (少林武术) presenting a routine named “Xinyi Quan” (Heart Mind Boxing). Jia Zhaoxuan declares that his family was in possession of this boxing method since one of his ancestors, Jia Shuwang, learned Shaolin Quan in the monastery. Jia Zhaoxuan explains that his ancestor had hand copied an old manuscript in the monastery that described this set. This event occurred during the reign of the Xangxi Emperor (1662-1723), around the time of Chen Wangting’s death. The set has the same sequences of techniques as Chen Taiji Yi Lu (first form), the techniques have the same names, with numerous and definite analogies.

(Note: this routine is very similar to the Qi Jia Quan 32 Postures routine practiced by descendents of Ming dynasty General Qi Jiguang. According to “The Biography of Zhang Songxi” in The Government Records and Annals of Ningbo City from 1683 kept in the Siming area of Zhejiang, this routine was also influenced by the teachings of Zhang Songxi, A version of this set can still be found in the Siming Nei Jia Quan system.)

According to T. Dufresne & J. Nguyen, a Henan Shaolin master named “Zhang Aijun told us he knew this sequence as “Xie Quan” (斜拳 - Oblique Boxing) and was practiced in Zhengzhou (郑州) and its environs. Zhengzhou is a major city about fifty kilometers northeast of Shaolin, about forty kilometers to the east of the village of Chen (陈家 句) and the town of Zhaobao (赵堡镇). We ourselves have noted that Jia Songan (贾松安), grand-son of Jia Zhaoxuan, this linage is currently in Kaifeng (开封) and Jiazhai (贾寨) under the name of ‘Shaolin Xiexingquan’ (少林斜行 拳) – Shaolin Slanted Walking Boxing, or ‘Xiexingquan of the old school of Shaolin Xinyi’ (少林古传心意邪行拳).
Aijun Zhang cited two other professors, now deceased, who taught the Xiequan. These are Zhang Rulin (张儒林) from Xingyang (荥阳), twenty kilometers from Zhengzhou, and Li Xinfa (李新发) from Zhengzhou.”

If one lists the names of the techniques that are in common to both Shaolin Xiexing Quan and Taiji Quan, there are more than twenty names, which is far beyond coincidence:
Ao - 拗,
Bai He Liang Xi - 白 鹤 晾 翅,
Bai She Tu Xin - 白 蛇 吐 信,
Da Hu - 打 虎,
Dan Bian - 單 鞭,
Er Qi Jiao - 二 起 腳,
Gao Tan Ma - 高 探 馬,
Hui Tou Wang Yue - 回 頭 望 月,
Jingang Dao Dui - 金 剛 搗 碓,
Jin Ji Du Li - 金 雞 獨 立,
Kua Hu - 跨 虎,
Lianhuan Chui - 連 環 捶 / Lianhuan Pao - 連 環 炮,
Long Chu Hai- 龍 出 海 / Long Chu Shui - 龍 出 水,
Qian Hou - 前 后,
Qixing - 七星,
Shi Zi Jiao - 十 字 脚,
Shi Zi Shou - 十 字 手,
Tong Bei - 通 背,
Wangong She Hu - 彎 弓 射 虎,
Xie Xing - 斜 行,
Ye Ma Fen Zong - 野 馬 分 鬃,
Yuanhou Xian Guo - 猿 猴 献 果,
Yunding - 雲 頂 / Baiyun Gai Ding - 白 雲 蓋 頂,
Yunü - 玉 女, etc.

Xiexing Quan / Xinyi Quan postures, which includes other terms related to Chen Taiji Quan, such as Green Dragon Rises from Water, Subdue Tiger, and more..

Continues T. Dufresne & J. Nguyen, “As we have already said, this Xiequan has the same structure and the same techniques as in sequences of the Chen style Taiji Quan Yi Lu. However, the punch and its repetitions [found in the Chen and Yang styles] are absent, as in the style of Taiji Quan Zhaobao. If the punch has been added to the Taiji Quan, after its separation from the Xiequan, this addition is necessarily old. This punch is already in the Chenshi Quan Xie (Compendium of Boxing and Weapons of Chen-Style - 陈氏拳械普), a manuscript which preserves the old lists of sequences of Chen Style Taiji Quan. Therefore Xiequan is a close relative of either Zhaobao or Chen style as it was formerly practiced. Note that this sequence is sometimes taught by practitioners of Changshi Wuji (苌氏 武技) (a boxing widespread in the area, claiming Chang Naizhou 苌乃周, 1724-1783). However, we do not believe that this is its origin. Indeed, Xiequan techniques are quite different from those of Changshi Wuji that are particularly
characteristic.”

Thus, Shaolin Xiexing Quan and Zhaobao / Chen Taiji Quan may both have descended from the same ancestral root style or Xiexing may have descended from the same ancestor as Taiji Quan. Some researchers think that this Shaolin Xiexing Quan set may be a version of a Tongbei Xing Quan set that Xinyi Quan master Ji Longfeng had learned at Qianzai Temple, introducing it to Shaolin during his visits (again connecting the origins of Xinyi Quan and Chen Taiji Quan and suggesting that the two styles were drawing from the same original sources). According to ancient Tongbi and Tongbei quanpu manuals, Tongbei Quan was developed in the early 1500s using Shaolin Quan as a base, as shall be explained later in this book. There are also the Ji Longfeng influenced sets of Changhua Xinyimen (长护心意门) and Xinyiba (心意把) in Shaolin Quan. Also, note that such people as the eighth century AD (the Tang dynasty) philosopher Xu Xuanping (許宣平) developed a Chang Quan 長拳 or Long Boxing of 37 forms, which featured postures named: Play the Pipa, Single Whip, Step up to Seven Stars, Jade Lady Works the Shuttles, High Pat on Horse; and White Crane (originally Phoenix) Cools Wing. Thus, sharing the same posture names as found in Shaolin Xie Quan and Chen / Yang Taiji Quan.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xie Quan has the missing moves seen in Chen TJQ Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:48 pm

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_54e0cc1601015lcn.html

Here is someone who is blogging about this topic. He has graphics that show some of the Xie Quan set that is like Chen TJQ
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Re: Xie Quan has the missing moves seen in Chen TJQ Yi Lu

Postby Bob on Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:45 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UMNdyZaBUQ



First form of short Chen style form taught by Liu Yunqiao - 2nd and 3rd forms progressively substitute more movements like a double kick etc. etc. and also progressively add fa jing to some of the movements.

Not sure if there is an overlap to some of the movements in your clips but in 1929 Liu Yunqiao and Chen Fake met in Beijing and some exchange was made - this story was told long before Chen style taijiquan hit the Western circuit.
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Re: Xie Quan has the missing moves seen in Chen TJQ Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:02 am

The Tai Zhu Chang Quan set that Chen TJQ Yi Lu corresponds to is missing the sequences of moves from White Crane spreads its wings to the punch,
The Xie Quan set has it in sequence.

The TZ set is missing the series of moves from High Pat the Horse to the Punch to the ground move.
The Xie Quan has it in sequence.

The TZ quan set is missing the series from Punch under the elbow to end of Whirling Red Hammers.
The Xie quan set has it in sequence.

The TZ quan set is missing the sequence with the crescent kick and sink to the ground before Golden Chicken stands on one leg.
The Xie Quan has it in sequence.

So, obviously, these moves from Xie Quan were used to fill in the TZ set to form Chen TJQ Yi Lu.

Maybe the Xie Quan set was known under a different name back then and was part of Chen village martial arts?

if you follow the researchers in China that have side the early Chen martial arts was influenced by Dong Bongzhai, who introduced his Tong Bei system, which was composed of Taoist Tong Bei and Shaolin martial arts (such as Hong Quan, Taizhu Chang Quan, Rou Quan, and more), then it is possible that the Xie Quan was part of his system and introduced at that time?

Chen Wangting (Yang Lu Chan's teacher) was said to have condensed 5 Chen routines into the Yi Lu and Er Lu sets.
So, you can see what he condensed by seeing the sequential correspondence of moves from both the Shaolin Taizhu Chang Quan set and the Shaolin Xie Quan set
(which is also known as the Old Shaolin Xin Yi Hu set - Old Shaolin Heart Mind Tiger Boxing. Xin Yi Quan comes from Ji Long Feng interaction with Shaolin.
Ji Long Feng Xin yi Ba material was also an influence on Dong Bongzhai).
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xie Quan has the missing moves seen in Chen TJQ Yi Lu

Postby Strange on Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:27 am

very informative, thanks
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Re: Xie Quan has the missing moves seen in Chen TJQ Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:33 pm

What's cool is that you can take the Chen Yi Lu set, then follow along in the Tai Zhu Chang Quan form and when it stops following, the next sequence is found in this Xie Quan / Xinyi Hu Quan set, and then it goes back and forth, reaching the end in the same sequence as the Chen Yi Lu.

For example, the TZQ set doesn't have Hi Pat the Horse and then the two kicks, but this XYH set picks it up in the same order as the Che Yi Lu.
then it goes back to TZQ and so on, back and forth until you get to the end.

Some parts of TZQ and this XYHQ set are the same, such as Ba Wang Overlooks the Troops,
which is where you do Golden Rooster Independently Stands on One Leg,
In Chen it is done much more like Ba Wang Overlooks the Troops then the Yang TJQ way of doing Golden Rooster Stands.
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Re: Xie Quan has the missing moves seen in Chen TJQ Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:45 pm

And the Tai Zhi Chang Quan set is one of the very few sets (if there are any others) that goes from the center to the right to do what what is most like Lazy Tying Coat.
and then goes to the left right after.
As does this Xinyi Hu/ Xie Quan set.
As does all Taiji Quan sets.

All the other Shaolin sets, are based on Louhan, and that starts on the left.
Only Shaolin Rou Quan sets go from the center to the right and to the left, but Rou Quan as very much like Taiji Quan as well.
The beginning is a lot like Wu Taiji Quan opens their long form.
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Re: Xie Quan has the missing moves seen in Chen TJQ Yi Lu

Postby Strange on Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:36 pm

social media and cameras not really available that that time
but it does not mean human interactions is any less

Shanghai Tiger Chu GuiTing shared and teach LHBF, his xingyi
Chen YiRen said that Chu's changing permutations after bengquan was formidable
天官指星 单对月 风摆荷叶 影成双

岳武穆王以枪为拳, 六合形意李门世根, 形意拳五行为先, 论身法六合为首,少揽闲事心田静, 多读拳谱武艺精 - 李洛能 (形意拳谱)
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Re: Xie Quan has the missing moves seen in Chen TJQ Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:43 pm

I have made a complete chart, with SIDE BY SIDE postures comparing the Chen Yi LU set with the Song Tai Zhu Chang Quan set and the Xie Quan / Xinyi Quan set.
See the URL for the PDF file.

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/images/comparison%20Chen%20TJQ%20vs%20Shaolin%20TZQ%20and%20XYQ.pdf

You will be very surprised!
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Re: Xie Quan has the missing moves seen in Chen TJQ Yi Lu

Postby Overlord on Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:32 am

salcanzonieri wrote:I have made a complete chart, with SIDE BY SIDE postures comparing the Chen Yi LU set with the Song Tai Zhu Chang Quan set and the Xie Quan / Xinyi Quan set.
See the URL for the PDF file.

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/images/comparison%20Chen%20TJQ%20vs%20Shaolin%20TZQ%20and%20XYQ.pdf

You will be very surprised!


Thank you for this valuable research.
Years ago, I thought there is similarity between Chen Taiji and Xinyi in two sections
1, Jin Gang Dao Chui 金剛搗錘 in CTJ routine
2,Fan Hua Wu Xiu 翻花舞袖 in Cannon Fist CTJ routine 2, this move is in Gongliquan 功力拳 as well

https://www.zuirebo.cn/v/v/206235451.html



Best of luck with your endeavors! Thanks again.
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Re: Xie Quan has the missing moves seen in Chen TJQ Yi Lu

Postby salcanzonieri on Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:44 am

Overlord wrote:
salcanzonieri wrote:I have made a complete chart, with SIDE BY SIDE postures comparing the Chen Yi LU set with the Song Tai Zhu Chang Quan set and the Xie Quan / Xinyi Quan set.
See the URL for the PDF file.

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/images/comparison%20Chen%20TJQ%20vs%20Shaolin%20TZQ%20and%20XYQ.pdf

You will be very surprised!


Thank you for this valuable research.
Years ago, I thought there is similarity between Chen Taiji and Xinyi in two sections
1, Jin Gang Dao Chui 金剛搗錘 in CTJ routine
2,Fan Hua Wu Xiu 翻花舞袖 in Cannon Fist CTJ routine 2, this move is in Gongliquan 功力拳 as well

https://www.zuirebo.cn/v/v/206235451.html


Best of luck with your endeavors! Thanks again.


Well, the big reason is that the Shaolin that Chen draws from was heavily influenced by that time period from Luoyang Ma family Xinyi Quan. Ma's teachers had passed on the Xinyi Ba to Shaolin. The set in the video you posted is very very much like Shaolin Xinyi Ba set. It's not much different at all.
The Shaolin Xie Quan I am talking about has sections with Xinyi Liu He Quan material. Such as Sparrow Hawk Enters the Forest, its done the same way.

WOW!, Looking at the video on the Chinese website above, SO MUCH of the sequences are in the Shaolin Xie Quan/ XInyi Quan set!
So . . .. back to the question, where did Chen TJQ get their material from?
Obviously from my chart, you can see most of the Chen Yi Lu follows the Xie Quan and TZ Chang Quan set, in sequential order.
Last edited by salcanzonieri on Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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