Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

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Re: Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

Postby wayne hansen on Thu May 21, 2020 9:50 pm

Last edited by wayne hansen on Thu May 21, 2020 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Thu May 21, 2020 10:39 pm

wayne hansen wrote:https://youtu.be/4hRNG4VYcLc


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Re: Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

Postby Formosa Neijia on Thu May 21, 2020 10:49 pm

yeniseri wrote:
GrahamB wrote:https://youtu.be/TG7skhO6o88



Usually, I try to be pc but that is fuc&ed up taiji on all counts! Look like he has a tick bite on his arse and shoulders! WTF
Do I get a 50% discount for my next class on his style of xxx. I believe I could fix some of what I see ;D


Finally some questioning of the non-sensical IMA paradigm. IMO this clip above shows the following problems:

1. shenfa is completely, utterly useless.
All of this bizarre body movement serves no purpose whatsoever other than some strange form of entertainment. Strangely enough, Scott Parks Philips made this point in one of his books when he noted that Chinese opera players started moving in weird ways as a form of advertising their operas and this made it's way into MA.
I personally saw this firsthand when I took judo and the throws we did were exactly the same as in bagua but because we spent precious class time on actually throwing people rather than walking in circles, I found that shenfa served no purpose. You need whole body power at the right time to pull off the technique but the shenfa required is determined BY THE TECHNIQUE IN APPLICATION, not from some shenfa done in a form.

2. forms are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overblown
They are grossly over-emphasized in modern CMA. They are only useful when you're by yourself and too tired to do anything useful like lifting weights, punching the bag, etc. No more than 30% of practice time should be devoted to them. Teachers over-emphasize them because of this: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. It's too easy to play "follow the leader" with dear master in the front and 50 behind him doing God knows what. I watched this at Chiang Kai-shek memorial one day. A baji teacher was leading a group class and a few nearer to him were following along fairly well but as you went further back into the crowd, I had no idea what they were doing. Looked like Egyptian style break dancing.

3. strength/conditioning/body conditioning are 100% ignored

I used to have a 90kg (200lbs) Thai bag at my gyms and I always wanted to see people with this crazy shenfa do their insane "fajin" against something like that. They would break every bone in their bodies. Ma can jerk around like a horse getting stung in the ass by a bee in that form because he's just playing with air. Let's see him do that shenfa/fajin and bounce heavy objects away. Strength training and conditioning are absolutely necessary but "masters" never see the need for it. They honestly think they are powerful and have no need for resistance training because flopping around in the air gives them all the "power" they need.

wayne hansen wrote:

This is where this insanity leads. These old guys are giving themselves neurological disorders with this nonsense. No where along the way in any of Ma's training did reality make an appearance even to the tune of 1%. What you see in Ma is the result of 30 years of stance training, forms, zero sparring, zero S&C, etc. I would be surprised if he has ever been punched in the mouth even once. Someone should have kicked him in the face a long time ago. How many people have spents thousands of hard-earned dollars and wasted decades of their lives on nonsense like this?
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Re: Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

Postby GrahamB on Thu May 21, 2020 11:33 pm

Excellent post Dave, but I think there are some counter points to be made:

1. shenfa is completely, utterly useless.

His Shenfa is completey, utterly useless, - agreed. In fact when that video was first posted, - back in the 2000s I think - I commented on it here and said it was bizarre, and I was told I was low level because I couldn't appreciate the higher level shenfa ;D

But does that mean everybody's shenfa is terrible? I think it depends how it's done. I personally think I've gained 'ways of moving' that i wouldn't have got without "form" practice. Especially to do with relaxation and whole body movement. Equally, without application practice it is all useless - you need both. But there are now lots of applications I don't need to practice with a partner anymore - and don't get any better at them if I do. But if you want to take something and get better at it then refining it over and over as a movement then starting solos and slow and building up with variations and speed, is a natural way to do it. There is often no mental 'space' to do this when practicing it in application.

2. forms are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overblown

See above.

3. strength/conditioning/body conditioning are 100% ignored

I wouldn't say it's ignored, but agree it's different - it's not the same as the weight-lifting model. CMA spend a lot of time conditioning, but it's of the tendons/fascia variety (what is often called 'qi') rather than building muscle mass. Agreed, some basic strength training wouldn't hurt either.

Forms practice also functions as cardio. But then so does running. But either way, cardio is really important.

Anyway, good points - good post.
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Re: Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

Postby Trick on Fri May 22, 2020 12:01 am

marvin8 wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I honestly wonder why people in general feel the need to show this crap

A variety of opinions were expresed: CMA is effective. But, charlatans need to be exposed, because they are giving CMA a bad reputation. ... The public (e.g., potential or current students) needs be protected from these so called self defense masters. ... CMA (in general not the 1%'s) needs to wake up and look at it's training regimen given CMAists with reported years of CMA training can't compete with non-ranked MMAist, boxers, hobbyists, etc.


I wonder as Wayne too......... CMAists who feel CMA is in a bad state and want to do something about it posts videos of other Chinese martial arts “masters” getting knocked out ?? Weird!
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Re: Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

Postby marvin8 on Fri May 22, 2020 1:01 am

Trick wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I honestly wonder why people in general feel the need to show this crap

A variety of opinions were expresed: CMA is effective. But, charlatans need to be exposed, because they are giving CMA a bad reputation. ... The public (e.g., potential or current students) needs be protected from these so called self defense masters. ... CMA (in general not the 1%'s) needs to wake up and look at it's training regimen given CMAists with reported years of CMA training can't compete with non-ranked MMAist, boxers, hobbyists, etc.


I wonder as Wayne too......... CMAists who feel CMA is in a bad state and want to do something about it posts videos of other Chinese martial arts “masters” getting knocked out ?? Weird!

One reason is main stream media will post the clip anyways. So, some CMAists may post with their own narrative disassociating themselves from the "fake" CMAist--CMA damage control.

GrahamB wrote:Excellent post Dave, but I think there are some counter points to be made:

1. shenfa is completely, utterly useless.

... But does that mean everybody's shenfa is terrible? I think it depends how it's done. I personally think I've gained 'ways of moving' that i wouldn't have got without "form" practice. Especially to do with relaxation and whole body movement. Equally, without application practice it is all useless - you need both. But there are now lots of applications I don't need to practice with a partner anymore - and don't get any better at them if I do. But if you want to take something and get better at it then refining it over and over as a movement then starting solos and slow and building up with variations and speed, is a natural way to do it. There is often no mental 'space' to do this when practicing it in application.

2. forms are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overblown[/b]

See above.

Most martial arts have some form of shenfa however different (e.g., shadow boxing, shadow uchikomi, johnwang has posted shuai chiao solo exercises, mental imagery, etc.).

Shen-fa: The Art of Cognitive Transmission of Martial Movement and Emotion Paperback – January 11, 2020:

Image

GrahamB wrote:
[b]3. strength/conditioning/body conditioning are 100% ignored


I wouldn't say it's ignored, but agree it's different - it's not the same as the weight-lifting model. CMA spend a lot of time conditioning, but it's of the tendons/fascia variety (what is often called 'qi') rather than building muscle mass. Agreed, some basic strength training wouldn't hurt either.

Modern sports science, mma, judo, etc., also has exercises working "tendons/fascia variety rather than building muscle mass" (e.g., Phil Daru at America's Top Team).
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Re: Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

Postby GrahamB on Fri May 22, 2020 1:25 am

Trick wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I honestly wonder why people in general feel the need to show this crap

A variety of opinions were expresed: CMA is effective. But, charlatans need to be exposed, because they are giving CMA a bad reputation. ... The public (e.g., potential or current students) needs be protected from these so called self defense masters. ... CMA (in general not the 1%'s) needs to wake up and look at it's training regimen given CMAists with reported years of CMA training can't compete with non-ranked MMAist, boxers, hobbyists, etc.


I wonder as Wayne too......... CMAists who feel CMA is in a bad state and want to do something about it posts videos of other Chinese martial arts “masters” getting knocked out ?? Weird!


You have to stop pretending the problem doesn't exist before you can do something about it.

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Re: Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

Postby Giles on Fri May 22, 2020 2:37 am

I'd also pretty much agree with Graham's response on this page to what FormosaNeijia wrote (basic agreement but with some important caveats).

Forms (be they 'proper' longer forms, or repeat cycling of a single movement, or zhan zhuang variations or whatever) are useless in the martial sense UNLESS they are practiced in a constant feedback cycle with partner training, including stuff that stretches your comfort zone. From my tai chi perspective, this partner training should include as a minimum various tuishou formats, applications training at various speeds, more cooperative and less cooperative sparring (including throws/takedowns) and scenario training.

That doesn't have to mean doing competition fighting, and it certainly doesn't need to aim or claim to make someone a 'real fighter', but then it does at least create a good chance that what you do in your solo form training has a connection to martial reality. And if you train it well, then it can, indeed, further develop qualities and bring benefits that will feed back into partner training and, if things go bad, into actual self-defence. (Which is of course not the same as squaring up to someone).

Without this constant feedback cycle between solo forms and demanding partner training, you soon head off into la-la-land in martial terms.
And the form work is probably less beneficial in health terms, as well.

PS. Did the short indoor video of Ma provide inspiration for the 'Hurticane'?
Last edited by Giles on Fri May 22, 2020 2:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

Postby phil b on Fri May 22, 2020 6:48 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:
1. shenfa is completely, utterly useless.
All of this bizarre body movement serves no purpose whatsoever other than some strange form of entertainment. Strangely enough, Scott Parks Philips made this point in one of his books when he noted that Chinese opera players started moving in weird ways as a form of advertising their operas and this made it's way into MA.
I personally saw this firsthand when I took judo and the throws we did were exactly the same as in bagua but because we spent precious class time on actually throwing people rather than walking in circles, I found that shenfa served no purpose. You need whole body power at the right time to pull off the technique but the shenfa required is determined BY THE TECHNIQUE IN APPLICATION, not from some shenfa done in a form.

2. forms are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overblown
They are grossly over-emphasized in modern CMA. They are only useful when you're by yourself and too tired to do anything useful like lifting weights, punching the bag, etc. No more than 30% of practice time should be devoted to them. Teachers over-emphasize them because of this: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. It's too easy to play "follow the leader" with dear master in the front and 50 behind him doing God knows what. I watched this at Chiang Kai-shek memorial one day. A baji teacher was leading a group class and a few nearer to him were following along fairly well but as you went further back into the crowd, I had no idea what they were doing. Looked like Egyptian style break dancing.

3. strength/conditioning/body conditioning are 100% ignored

I used to have a 90kg (200lbs) Thai bag at my gyms and I always wanted to see people with this crazy shenfa do their insane "fajin" against something like that. They would break every bone in their bodies. Ma can jerk around like a horse getting stung in the ass by a bee in that form because he's just playing with air. Let's see him do that shenfa/fajin and bounce heavy objects away. Strength training and conditioning are absolutely necessary but "masters" never see the need for it. They honestly think they are powerful and have no need for resistance training because flopping around in the air gives them all the "power" they need.

wayne hansen wrote:

This is where this insanity leads. These old guys are giving themselves neurological disorders with this nonsense. No where along the way in any of Ma's training did reality make an appearance even to the tune of 1%. What you see in Ma is the result of 30 years of stance training, forms, zero sparring, zero S&C, etc. I would be surprised if he has ever been punched in the mouth even once. Someone should have kicked him in the face a long time ago. How many people have spents thousands of hard-earned dollars and wasted decades of their lives on nonsense like this?


This makes sense to me, and here's why:
I dabbled with Muay Thai and a little Muay Boran. Solo training was shenfa training, but it was followed by heavy bag, padwork, and partner drills. Nothing changed! It was the same throughout. I was lucky enough to learn some of my kung fu the same way, but Muay Thai and Muay Boran, at least with the Thais I trained with, was so simple. If you looked pretty, but couldn't make it work on the bag or pads, you worked it until you could.

In my Hung Gar days, and with one of my Xing Yi teachers, forms were a small part of the training. Most of the class was solo and two man strength, conditioning, and sensitivity/application work. The forms were imporant, but not the be all and end all.

I've trained in Dave's gym, and one thing we discussed was kettlebells. For feeling if your connected from the ground to the top of your head, they are awesome. A one hand swing or snatch will quickly call you out. I also remember the bag in his gym. It was hard as hell, and was no fun if you didn't hit it clean, just like bags in Thailand.
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Re: Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

Postby windwalker on Fri May 22, 2020 7:05 am

But there’s a difference between calling out non-experienced traditional martial artists, and actually taking on a semi-professional fighter.
Xu found that out at great cost when he went to spar with some Chinese kick-boxers last year at an MMA gym in China, one of whom left him with a fractured skull and needing 26 stitches around his eyebrow.


“When I fought the first person, I felt he used a lot of good power but I thought, ‘No, I can take it’. I felt like I had good strategy. But I didn’t have much time to counter hit. I knew I had to conserve my energy,” he said.


ttps://www.scmp.com/sport/martial-arts/ ... tured-muay

Unless one is dealing with those who "fight" compete, or expect to work in or use their art on a daily basis
it may be hard to gain a sense of the "reality" they may feel they’re training for.

Seems counterproductive to focus on those who may not who say they do, attempting to change or show others what ever one is intending to show by doing so.


By focusing on them, engaging them in the process, it also might condition one to feel they have skill sets that they may not really have for the level of engagement they feel they can deal with.

Some talk about a feedback cycle,,,,

The best feed back is getting hit, and learning on how not to get hit...

boxing "hitting" and grappling are very honest skill sets to practice and work on,
or understand how to deal with if one is not a grappler, or striker.

With wide variety of sub skills that go into each, they can be worked on appropriate to the level of expected engagement.

Back in the 70s the complaint about CMA was/is that the training methods practiced often did not
have any resemblance to what was actually used.

What was actually used more often then not resembled what might be called natural responses that require no
real training.

Each of us who practice CMA can change the perception every time we meet with someone...at our own level.
Lots of different reasons for ones own practice.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri May 22, 2020 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

Postby windwalker on Fri May 22, 2020 7:10 am

I also remember the bag in his gym. It was hard as hell, and was no fun if you didn't hit it clean, just like bags in Thailand.


had to laugh, made me think of the army duffle bag filled with sand that we used back in the day...good stuff ;)

The large bag in the other room would also add my own blood stains to it caused by hitting it off center. Interesting in that we would swing the bag, allowing it to hit either a fist or kick. This was to test ones alignment and structure.

The bag didn’t seem to mind if one was off center, one could either sprain an ankle or rip the skin off the knuckles. It was funny in an odd way as when it happened every one would know, hearing the swearing that normally followed such a mistake, and having done it themselves everyone would laugh, score one for the bag.

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Re: Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

Postby Formosa Neijia on Fri May 22, 2020 7:01 pm

The problem isn't HIS shenfa is terrible, no the problem is stressing shenfa AT ALL.

Several people in the thread seem not to know that CHINESE INTERNAL MARTIAL ARTS MOVES ARE NOT LIKE THOSE FOUND IN OTHER MARTIAL ARTS. THEY ARE VERY ABSTRACT AND MUST BE INTERPRETED TO BE APPLIED.

When I did tai-otoshi in shadow uchikomi in judo, that tai-otoshi looked exactly like what I would do against an opponent. It didn't need to be interpreted. When you shadowbox in boxing, the moves are the same as you would apply them. CIMA DOES NOT WORK LIKE THAT.

There are many abstractions that get in the way of applying CIMA in regards to shenfa.

1. Other MA techniques have simple names. A muay thai round kick is just like what it sounds like: a kick that is thrown in a round manner. A karate reverse punch isn't hard to figure out nor is a right cross from boxing. Judo often uses Japanese terms for the throws but they are simply Japanese terms for the actual movement. NOT IN CIMA. CIMA is filled with moves like "black dragon shakes its tail," or Chen style's "lazy about tying coat," or Yang style's "jade lady works the shuttles."
Dragons don't exist so how does it swing it's tail? What's the difference between a black dragon and a purple one with pink polkadots and why should i care? How the hell can you be "lazy" about tying a damn coat? WTF is a "jade lady" and WTH does it mean to "work a shuttle"? WTF DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WITH PUTTING MAN ON THE GROUND?

2. The names show that the moves are drawn from how dragons, "immortals," and all sorts of nonsensical things move, NOT from practical needs in appliction. You have to be taught or figure out what all of these damn literary allusions mean and then move according to those literary, abstract descriptions. These abstract moves then get "interpreted" into applications, meaning the movement comes first, not what is needed to apply it. These abstractions don't exist in many other martial arts.

3. Techniques in other MA are one move. A jab is one movement. A kick is one movement. A throw is one movement. Not so in CIMA. "Buddha's warrior attendant pounds sand"...um...sorry..."pounds mortar" isn't one movement but several. "Black dragon swings it tail" is an entire sequence. Most moves in CIMA are like this. When you apply a jab, it looks like a jab. But when you apply something out of one of these flowery moves in CIMA it doesn't look like the whole sequence and is abstracted from the sequence, leading to all sorts of arguments as to whether or not that was "correctly interpreted." Nobody in judo ever has said "what he's doing on the mat is not THE REAL judo" because all the moves are simple and well known because they require no interpretation.
I got into a heated argument once for teaching Yang style's cloud hands as blocking system because it clearly teaches hands to circle to the outside. I was told "you have no idea what that move really is." Using the moves exactly as they are done in the form isn't even allowed. Apparently i don't understand how clouds move, lol.

4. Every style claims to have it's special shenfa which is somehow completely different from every other fighting art on earth but almost none of these teachers can show you in combat WHY they move like that. The reason is that what is needed in application is much shorter, sharper, and smaller than what is expressed as shenfa while doing a solo form, especially when some teacher is going out of his way to earn money by separting his system ("I'm the only one" $$$$) from others by his special shenfa. Once all the flowery shit gets taken out, what ends up being applied looks very similar across MA styles because human combat places demands on the body. This is why all this nonsense about how combat "doesn't look like taiji" comes from. What's necessary to survive an assault is the important part, not the flowery BS. This is inverted in CIMA.

5. In other MA styles, the application comes FIRST and what is needed to pull the move off is emphasized. CIMA demands that people practice their sacred shenfa for years if not decades BEFORE they are allowed to apply it because of all the levels of abstraction. Judo has forms but almost no one does them and they are only taught to higher black belts. I never saw anyone actually doing them. They aren't necessary if you actually practice the art with others.

6. Finally, the emphasis on expressing shenfa in forms takes so much time and life energy due to the reasons above that there is nothing left for two-person practices like sparring. Many of these shenfa linkages that people think they are finding in solo forms practice are even more abundant in two man practices like hand drills and sparring. And those linkages are DIRECTLY applicable because of where they come from. But all of kungfu now has become a beauty pageant and it's all about how people look now.

phil b wrote:This makes sense to me, and here's why:
I dabbled with Muay Thai and a little Muay Boran. Solo training was shenfa training, but it was followed by heavy bag, padwork, and partner drills. Nothing changed! It was the same throughout. I was lucky enough to learn some of my kung fu the same way, but Muay Thai and Muay Boran, at least with the Thais I trained with, was so simple. If you looked pretty, but couldn't make it work on the bag or pads, you worked it until you could.

In my Hung Gar days, and with one of my Xing Yi teachers, forms were a small part of the training. Most of the class was solo and two man strength, conditioning, and sensitivity/application work. The forms were imporant, but not the be all and end all.

I've trained in Dave's gym, and one thing we discussed was kettlebells. For feeling if your connected from the ground to the top of your head, they are awesome. A one hand swing or snatch will quickly call you out. I also remember the bag in his gym. It was hard as hell, and was no fun if you didn't hit it clean, just like bags in Thailand.


Good to hear from you! Hope all is well. Yes, the linkages you find in whole body power through kettlebell training are direct. the power either goes directly from the feet to the hands to the kettlebell or it doesn't. If it does go correctly, then more reps, more weight, etc. can be used to build that whole body power. The results are immediate rather than taking 20 years and they are measurable meaning they can be progressed easily. Imaginging how purple immortals would tie their coats while pounding sand isn't needed.
Last edited by Formosa Neijia on Fri May 22, 2020 8:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

Postby Trick on Fri May 22, 2020 11:18 pm

windwalker wrote:
But there’s a difference between calling out non-experienced traditional martial artists, and actually taking on a semi-professional fighter.
Xu found that out at great cost when he went to spar with some Chinese kick-boxers last year at an MMA gym in China, one of whom left him with a fractured skull and needing 26 stitches around his eyebrow.


“When I fought the first person, I felt he used a lot of good power but I thought, ‘No, I can take it’. I felt like I had good strategy. But I didn’t have much time to counter hit. I knew I had to conserve my energy,” he said.






As I’ve suspected, his story is not that different from the “Kungfu” guys he set out to beat up.
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Re: Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

Postby Trick on Fri May 22, 2020 11:53 pm

What’s in a name, and what about Kungfu flowers ?

What the heck does ‘Muay’ mean, and a ‘right-cross’ is that the same as an straight right, but crossing what ? I need to see it to figure our what it is.
There’s no ‘flowered’ moves, why does one believe that there is ? but yes some moves with flowered names there are, but that’s no big issue , one can still do the moves in a non flowery way, or perhaps should say a non flowered understanding, but one will still look sharp

Someone wrote that his experience was that the tough an real fighter had crappy forms performance....well that equation doesn’t fit with the Kungfu “master” of this topic I guess.
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Re: Tai Chi Master Who Ran From Xu Xiaodong Fights MMA Hobbyist

Postby Trick on Sat May 23, 2020 12:07 am

. “The Chinese have absolutely ruined kungfu.”
Hard to argue with this really.
Kung Fu has been around all over the globe quite a long time by now, but then the Chinese absolutely ruined it FOR US ALL........ How lame!
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