"In the Past We Call It Xin, Now We Call It Brain"

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"In the Past We Call It Xin, Now We Call It Brain"

Postby Strange on Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:04 am

天官指星 单对月 风摆荷叶 影成双

岳武穆王以枪为拳, 六合形意李门世根, 形意拳五行为先, 论身法六合为首,少揽闲事心田静, 多读拳谱武艺精 - 李洛能 (形意拳谱)
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Re: "In the Past We Call It Xin, Now We Call It Brain"

Postby Bao on Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:22 am

Maybe 'brain' works for Yiquan. Traditionally "xin" has a connotation and correlation to emotions, a big part of the term's meaning will be lost if you only consider the cognitive functions.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "In the Past We Call It Xin, Now We Call It Brain"

Postby Trick on Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:36 am

simplified, yiquan came from the tradition using "xing". most practitionets seemed to got stuck on the xing part and never understood the importance of "Yi", so Wang focused teaching on that part.............. even though wangs teachings are very clear many are still not getting it..........It might even be so that many in the "xin" group get stuck on the xing thing
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Re: "In the Past We Call It Xin, Now We Call It Brain"

Postby Strange on Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:18 am

well, to me Master Yu was saying that Yiquan trained :
1) Brain - musculature connection(s)
2) Increased the power of the brain signal to the muscles
3) correct use of muscle groups under a controlled (quiet) condition that is zhanzhuang.

cheers

Bao - i am not sure if emotions should play a large part in MA. At my present level of understanding, i think it may be
detrimental, in a sense that emotions may cloud judgment.

Trick - I am not sure if YQ can be characterized as having a heavy emphasis on "xing"; in fact i think most would say the
opposite. but i do agree that many practitioners get stuck on "xing", this is very true.
Stuck on "xing" meaning, insisting on having/moving in a certain form without understanding the actual/full meaning.

As a person with engineering background, i think it is better that the teacher can explain stuff in direction and magnitude
of force. Otherwise, i feel it is true that "normal" chinese method of writing about cma can lead to many errors in thinking.
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岳武穆王以枪为拳, 六合形意李门世根, 形意拳五行为先, 论身法六合为首,少揽闲事心田静, 多读拳谱武艺精 - 李洛能 (形意拳谱)
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Re: "In the Past We Call It Xin, Now We Call It Brain"

Postby Trick on Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:42 am

Trick - I am not sure if YQ can be characterized as having a heavy emphasis on "xing"; in fact i think most would say the
opposite. but i do agree that many practitioners get stuck on "xing", this is very true.
Stuck on "xing" meaning, insisting on having/moving in a certain form without understanding the actual/full meaning.
thats what i was "trying" to say, that wang thought too many got stuck in the xing and never got the Yi part working, so he focused his teaching on that part, the Yi part......yes that part is where the neural system is "cleansed" and sharpened
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Re: "In the Past We Call It Xin, Now We Call It Brain"

Postby Trick on Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:49 am

about the "Xin" in xinyiquan and relate it to emotions ? i feel in such case relates to bravery, fearlessness, guts perhaps....
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Re: "In the Past We Call It Xin, Now We Call It Brain"

Postby suckinlhbf on Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:49 am

if emotions should play a large part in MA

I don't know whether it is a large part but for sure is the fun part. The taste and feeling of moves differ every time and every moment. Where is it come from? I guess it is the emotion at THAT moment. So, Does emotion start with the "Xin" or from the "brain"? Why the old literature always said "Xin" but did not say "brain"? The Chinese do have the word for "brain". The saying in XingYi - 面善心狠 (face gentle and heart ruthless). The brain can make the face gentle but not the heart ruthless. I think call "Xin" as "Brain" is wrong.
Last edited by suckinlhbf on Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "In the Past We Call It Xin, Now We Call It Brain"

Postby Bao on Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:26 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:I think call "Xin" as "Brain" is wrong.


Yes I do agree, I think so. ‘Xin’ is the character for heart. It is often used as “mind”, but can also mean heart, emotions and feelings. Sometimes it’s translated as heart-mind, often meaning The emotional “mind’. In Chinese tradition, thought and emotion is connected. And breath has a connection to this relationship. Using mind, or “Xin“, in Chinese arts doesn’t mean “to think” as in using the brain, but it means to control and regulate both thought and emotions.
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Re: "In the Past We Call It Xin, Now We Call It Brain"

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:49 pm

In my experience, one of the goals of ZZ is learning how to recruit/activate muscles that are not normally under our control, which produces phenomenal power.

This article on strength difference between humans and apes and how it relates to the nervous systems may be of interest.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 200829.htm
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Re: "In the Past We Call It Xin, Now We Call It Brain"

Postby Trick on Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:00 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:
if emotions should play a large part in MA

I don't know whether it is a large part but for sure is the fun part. The taste and feeling of moves differ every time and every moment. Where is it come from? I guess it is the emotion at THAT moment. So, Does emotion start with the "Xin" or from the "brain"?

Perhaps the difference in taste and feeling from time to time in ones training relates to one’s general mood for the day.....
I would lean to that the training eventually strives to balance ones mood
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Re: "In the Past We Call It Xin, Now We Call It Brain"

Postby Trick on Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:15 pm

Bao wrote:
suckinlhbf wrote:I think call "Xin" as "Brain" is wrong.


Yes I do agree, I think so. ‘Xin’ is the character for heart. It is often used as “mind”, but can also mean heart, emotions and feelings. Sometimes it’s translated as heart-mind, often meaning The emotional “mind’. In Chinese tradition, thought and emotion is connected. And breath has a connection to this relationship. Using mind, or “Xin“, in Chinese arts doesn’t mean “to think” as in using the brain, but it means to control and regulate both thought and emotions.

We have the saying - being big hearted which could mean being generous, however in xinyiquan i believe as i said it stands for something as being brave courageous - strong hearted. Which also work in the west.
Even the dictionary has it so https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... onghearted
Then we also have being “hard hearted”
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Re: "In the Past We Call It Xin, Now We Call It Brain"

Postby Trick on Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:36 pm

C.J.W. wrote:In my experience, one of the goals of ZZ is learning how to recruit/activate muscles that are not normally under our control, which produces phenomenal power.




Yes , the nervous system is deeply activated , but one have to have the correct mind activity(Yi) going on while ZZing, that is also the truth when going throu the Xing’s.
The way of correct mind activity implemented was/(is)the “secret”, only given to a few trusted in olden times. The result of the correct practice gave “phenomenal power”(not expected from the person displaying it,as not being “muscular” and physically strong looking)and also and most important an hightened sensitivity/awareness applied as superior timing skill...
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Re: "In the Past We Call It Xin, Now We Call It Brain"

Postby Bao on Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:47 am

Trick wrote:We have the saying - being big hearted which could mean being generous, however in xinyiquan i believe as i said it stands for something as being brave courageous - strong hearted. Which also work in the west.
Even the dictionary has it so https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... onghearted
Then we also have being “hard hearted”


TCMA in general speak about calmness. Even the samurai adapted the chinese concept of "wu xin" (mushin in jap.) which means "no mind", or maybe "no heart-mind" which means and empty state with no deliberate thoughts and no emotions. This is warrior's mind-set which is IMO the very key to braveness and courage. If you worry or have fear, you cannot be courageous. If you control fear and thoughts, you can be courageous. Personally, I see no difference between what you speak about XY compared to other IMA as TJQ, BGZ, XYLH, or TCMA in general. They all originated from battlefield warfare and they all teach that emptiness is the highest mind-state. Courage might be expressed in different ways though. Waiting for the right moment, creating the right moment or running right through an opponent without caring about a right moment are all different strategies, but IMO, not different degrees of courage or the absence thereof.

"hard hearted" in Swedish at least means coldhearted. Emotionally cold, no sympathy, cruel.
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Re: "In the Past We Call It Xin, Now We Call It Brain"

Postby Trick on Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:52 am

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:We have the saying - being big hearted which could mean being generous, however in xinyiquan i believe as i said it stands for something as being brave courageous - strong hearted. Which also work in the west.
Even the dictionary has it so https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... onghearted
Then we also have being “hard hearted”


TCMA in general speak about calmness. Even the samurai adapted the chinese concept of "wu xin" (mushin in jap.) which means "no mind", or maybe "no heart-mind" which means and empty state with no deliberate thoughts and no emotions. This is warrior's mind-set which is IMO the very key to braveness and courage. If you worry or have fear, you cannot be courageous. If you control fear and thoughts, you can be courageous. Personally, I see no difference between what you speak about XY compared to other IMA as TJQ, BGZ, XYLH, or TCMA in general. They all originated from battlefield warfare and they all teach that emptiness is the highest mind-state. Courage might be expressed in different ways though. Waiting for the right moment, creating the right moment or running right through an opponent without caring about a right moment are all different strategies, but IMO, not different degrees of courage or the absence thereof.

"hard hearted" in Swedish at least means coldhearted. Emotionally cold, no sympathy, cruel.

yes of course wuxin- mushin is a state reachable in all the ma's.......there is another xin or shin important in japanese budu zanshin - remaining heart - keeping ones awarenes ....its not over till its over, and even then its not over...kind of...Zanshin is something getting somwhat lost with the sportification of the martial arts
Last edited by Trick on Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "In the Past We Call It Xin, Now We Call It Brain"

Postby suckinlhbf on Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:43 am



Two top class religion leaders exchanged their perception on "Xin". They both have spent their lifetime searching for "Xin". It is religion related, and can also be related to many many things including martial arts. Who can say they know what "Xin" is, even they have spent several lifetimes to search for it.
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