Kung Fu Debunked Ep 4 Stance training, move or not to move?

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Kung Fu Debunked Ep 4 Stance training, move or not to move?

Postby marvin8 on Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:21 am

TriEssence Martial Arts
Nov 3, 2020

In this episode of Kung Fu Debunked, I'm going to debunk a Yiquan video where someone claims that beginner should start doing Yiquan stance while allowing motion, this is a huge taboo within any internal style, and here is why.

As always constructive comments are welcome and feel free to contact me for class details in Gauteng South Africa atm, and in NSW AU in the near future.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N7UxD5WHrM
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Re: Kung Fu Debunked Ep 4 Stance training, move or not to move?

Postby Trick on Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:03 am

Nothing wrong doing small movement to quick get the feel of the pulling’n pushing. The small movements makes it easier for the beginner student to get the essential visualizations going....
Shili exercises are expanded ZZ...ZZ is shili made compact...
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Re: Kung Fu Debunked Ep 4 Stance training, move or not to move?

Postby Bao on Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:19 pm

Some people say: "no, you can never move". Others say "you should always move". But one doesn't need to exclude the other, in fact, and IMO, completely non-moving and using small movements are two very different types of practice that will lead to different goals.

The first practice, especially if certain strict angles are applied, the body will become tired and you will start to feel pain very fast. When you stand through pain through your legs, back and arms, you will force your body to adapt in a new way. You'll build up your body and breath in a certain way and gain a type of stamina.

The other method of moving and feeling what happen in your body through using small, subtle shiftings, is similar to very slow forms practice. It will let you understand some important things about your body. Some say that this is a way to build up your qi through guiding movement and intent.
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Re: Kung Fu Debunked Ep 4 Stance training, move or not to move?

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:18 am

. The first practice, especially if certain strict angles are applied, the body will become tired and you will start to feel pain very fast. When you stand through pain through your legs, back and arms, you will force your body to adapt in a new way. You'll build up your body and breath in a certain way and gain a type of stamina.
This part is actually just a beginners “testing” practice for the teacher to see if the student has devotion or not.....

If the student can be trusted from beginning that stage is unnecessary and teaching will begin with the ZZ that is directly relevant for combat practice...The strength/stamina build up comes along anyway...actually comes along in an betterway...

I’m referring to YiQuan ZZ since the OP is referring to that...
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Re: Kung Fu Debunked Ep 4 Stance training, move or not to move?

Postby Bao on Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:18 am

"This part is actually just a beginners “testing” practice for the teacher to see if the student has devotion or not....."


This is the most common view, but I disagree. Maybe this is the Yiquan mind-set. But IME, and from a general IMA perspective, they are two different types pf practice and should be regarded as different practices. Despite both are called zhan zhuang, they are in fact very different types of practice and lead to different results. The stationary practice will force you to use your muscles and alignment differently. When you relax through the session, your body is forced to use different sets of muscles to maintain the alignment, deeper muscles, core muscles. But if you constantly move and shift, you can still do the exercise for a long time using the same sets of muscles you use in daily life. I would regard the first type of zhanzhuang as the most important to maintain strength and health, but both of practices can be combined and practiced throughout life. One does not need to exclude the other.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Nov 04, 2020 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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Re: Kung Fu Debunked Ep 4 Stance training, move or not to move?

Postby Giles on Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:47 am

If I may join this Swedish conversation... ;)

There’s a third possibility for movement/non-movement when standing, too. You can be standing still – I mean trying to hold the best alignment you can find in that moment, while relaxing, but not intentionally allowing any small movements, waves, shifts, oscillations. And then sometimes the body moves/adjusts ‘by itself’, at least not with any conscious or volitional movement by the will. It’s a change in alignment, usually in the torso/spine. This can be a slower movement, maybe taking a few seconds, or a sudden adjustment; either smaller or bigger. To me it feels like someone else, or some big hand, suddenly moves me, making a correction, giving me the feeling: “whatever just did that, it wasn’t me. But now I’m standing better.” -- The slower adjustments feel the strangest, almost like someone else is giving me a gentle but firm correction.

In my personal experience, that doesn’t happen so often, but it appears in some phases of practice. It can be startling, but it also feels good.
Anyone else experience this sometimes?

PS. I don’t have time to watch the video, it’s more than half an hour, but if there’s anything in it which is relevant to what I just wrote, then I’d be grateful for a time reference.
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Re: Kung Fu Debunked Ep 4 Stance training, move or not to move?

Postby Bao on Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:07 am

Giles wrote:PS. I don’t have time to watch the video, it’s more than half an hour, but if there’s anything in it which is relevant to what I just wrote, then I’d be grateful for a time reference.


Lol! Nothing is going to make me watch this again. As often on this channel, the whole video could have been condensed into 5 minutes. He speaks way too much and unfocused.
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- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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Re: Kung Fu Debunked Ep 4 Stance training, move or not to move?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:52 am

Giles wrote:If I may join this Swedish conversation... ;)

There’s a third possibility for movement/non-movement when standing, too. You can be standing still – I mean trying to hold the best alignment you can find in that moment, while relaxing, but not intentionally allowing any small movements, waves, shifts, oscillations. And then sometimes the body moves/adjusts ‘by itself’, at least not with any conscious or volitional movement by the will. It’s a change in alignment, usually in the torso/spine. This can be a slower movement, maybe taking a few seconds, or a sudden adjustment; either smaller or bigger. To me it feels like someone else, or some big hand, suddenly moves me, making a correction, giving me the feeling: “whatever just did that, it wasn’t me. But now I’m standing better.” -- The slower adjustments feel the strangest, almost like someone else is giving me a gentle but firm correction.

In my personal experience, that doesn’t happen so often, but it appears in some phases of practice. It can be startling, but it also feels good.
Anyone else experience this sometimes?

PS. I don’t have time to watch the video, it’s more than half an hour, but if there’s anything in it which is relevant to what I just wrote, then I’d be grateful for a time reference.

Wang says the same thing you are just not specifically, "feels like someone else, or some big hand, suddenly moves me." He says in the video he's only discussing the concept/mental but not teaching you the physical training, to do that find a teacher.

At 12:15-12:16, Wang implies at the beginning you will move and make adjustments. But, the goal of consistent stance training is to eventually have directional forces coexist. He disagrees with the other youtuber who says one should move on purpose, then correct themselves.
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Re: Kung Fu Debunked Ep 4 Stance training, move or not to move?

Postby Trick on Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:56 am

feeling as some other hand or "entity" stear you into correct posture is not the yiquan way....The small moves i point out are not small moves to correct the posture if happen one would feel the posture gone out of place....the small moves i point out are directly conected with the necessary visualisations going on during yiquan practice
Last edited by Trick on Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kung Fu Debunked Ep 4 Stance training, move or not to move?

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:25 am

Trick wrote:feeling as some other hand or "entity" stear you into correct posture is not the yiquan way....The small moves i point out are not small moves to correct the posture if happen one would feel the posture gone out of place....the small moves i point out are directly conected with the necessary visualisations going on during yiquan practice

At 4:20, the other guy says, "I visualize the mental ease such as pulling a tree upward or downward, pushing it forward or pulling it backward, squeezing it inward or outward, etc."

Wang says the same thing. However, he disagrees with the word "or," the feeling should be "and."
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Re: Kung Fu Debunked Ep 4 Stance training, move or not to move?

Postby Trick on Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:34 pm

marvin8 wrote:
Trick wrote:feeling as some other hand or "entity" stear you into correct posture is not the yiquan way....The small moves i point out are not small moves to correct the posture if happen one would feel the posture gone out of place....the small moves i point out are directly conected with the necessary visualisations going on during yiquan practice

At 4:20, the other guy says, "I visualize the mental ease such as pulling a tree upward or downward, pushing it forward or pulling it backward, squeezing it inward or outward, etc."

Wang says the same thing. However, he disagrees with the word "or," the feeling should be "and."

Yes that’s one early stage visualization, with the tree it’s more the or....think logic, the tree stands there, you pull it up but it’s roots “pull” it back down, you pull it sideways the tree want back to its original erect position...you can’t pull the tree to left and right at same time....actually if there where two forces pulling the tree to opposite sides, then it’s actually the tree that’s doing YiQuan ZZ
Last edited by Trick on Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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