Old boxing stance

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Old boxing stance

Postby C.J.W. on Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:06 pm

He makes some good points on why old-school boxers fought using stances that are very similar to those found in traditional Asian martial arts.


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Re: Old boxing stance

Postby Trick on Thu Nov 05, 2020 1:26 am

Cant see the the vid, can you very briefly point out the points of the why of the “traditional” boxing stance ? I have guessed it had something to do with the Broughton boxing rules ?
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Re: Old boxing stance

Postby Bhassler on Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:41 am

Trick wrote:Cant see the the vid, can you very briefly point out the points of the why of the “traditional” boxing stance ? I have guessed it had something to do with the Broughton boxing rules ?


http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php ... hotos-way/
Last edited by Bhassler on Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Old boxing stance

Postby Trick on Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:36 am

Bhassler wrote:
Trick wrote:Cant see the the vid, can you very briefly point out the points of the why of the “traditional” boxing stance ? I have guessed it had something to do with the Broughton boxing rules ?


http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php ... hotos-way/

Thanks, interesting read
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Re: Old boxing stance

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:05 am

C.J.W. wrote:He makes some good points on why old-school boxers fought using stances that are very similar to those found in traditional Asian martial arts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFqpWGL_EQE&t=507s[/youtube]

Right. One shouldn't compare fighting guard/stances in modern boxing to TMA. Because boxing has limited rules—not allowing kicking and takedowns.

Even the Broughton rules did not allow grappling below the waist. The guard and stance should move in relation to the opponent (e.g., distance, timing, etc.). Both hands have multiple functions.
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Re: Old boxing stance

Postby Trick on Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:04 am

I’m actually not sure about the Broughton rules, but I’d imagined it as the fighters square of in a minimal space so they’re basically stationary allowing (almost)no footwork, so that’s why the upright almost lean back position and “outstreched” front arm and stomach covering back arm...
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Re: Old boxing stance

Postby zrm on Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:50 pm

You can speculate or you can just watch the old footage to see how they fought. Thanks to the modern internet we can now do that pretty easily.

Colour footage from 1897


Bob Fitzsimmon's was world middle weight, light heavy weight and heavy weight world champion. He was taught in the style of the the old school bareknuckle english boxers by Jem Mace. If you find his book online he references (blows) strikes that used to be allowed but banned by modern rules. No throws though. He does have some interesting breathing exercises.

His opponent James Corbett was famous for defeating John Sullivan, the last well known US heavy weight bare knuckle champions Corbett is also credited for modern concept of using lots of jabs to maintain distance. Up until then people used to straight arm a lot.

Right up until the end Fitzsimmons was regarded as losing this fight as he had no response to the continuous jab concept. That is until he knocked Corbett out in the 14th round with an uppercut to the solar plexus.

Last edited by zrm on Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Old boxing stance

Postby zrm on Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:55 pm

Jack Johnson also had a low guard and had a striking style reminiscent to xing yi,

1909
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Re: Old boxing stance

Postby Trick on Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:17 am

Traditionally karate guard in fighting competition is held low the forearms aligned so that fists point directly toward opponent similar to the old boxing arm/fist position, however the leg stance is often longer than the old boxer stance. The distance is also longer between the karate combatants when squaring off than in modern boxing since usually a single strike is decisive....one can’t afford trading punches..”

traditional’ karate competition fighting relay mainly on timing and distance awareness and not so much on physical power, maybe this focus comes from fighting without gloves ? (No! Some will say it’s because Karate competition is fought in semincontact )
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Re: Old boxing stance

Postby marvin8 on Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:53 am

zrm wrote:Jack Johnson also had a low guard and had a striking style reminiscent to xing yi,

1909
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMZQUCVrN6I

But, power generation is different. At 4:10, Ketchel knocks down Johnson with a rear straight while Johnson's guard is down. Some old style boxing techniques are good for self-defense, some have evolved for the better.

Trick wrote:Traditionally karate guard in fighting competition is held low the forearms aligned so that fists point directly toward opponent similar to the old boxing arm/fist position, however the leg stance is often longer than the old boxer stance. The distance is also longer between the karate combatants when squaring off than in modern boxing since usually a single strike is decisive....one can’t afford trading punches..”

No. Boxers start by touching gloves and going back to their respective corners. When the bell rings, they come out of their corners and start fighting, as shown in the video above.

Trick wrote:traditional’ karate competition fighting relay mainly on timing and distance awareness and not so much on physical power, maybe this focus comes from fighting without gloves ? (No! Some will say it’s because Karate competition is fought in semincontact )

Boxing also relies on timing, distance, etc., not only power. Smaller or no gloves can effect the way the gloves are used for blocking. Many karate competitions stop/start after a point is scored and contact to the face is illegal. Karate rules can effect guard/stances and strategies.
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Re: Old boxing stance

Postby Trick on Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:15 am

No. Boxers start by touching gloves and going back to their respective corners. When the bell rings, they come out of their corners and start fighting, as shown in the video above.
yes. however they may clinch pretty soon and stand head to head trading punches, probably more common with the heavier weight classes ?..........for some reason these days on Baidu show a lot of video clips of mike tyson fights , those clips show exactly what i mean
Last edited by Trick on Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Old boxing stance

Postby Trick on Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:30 am

Many karate competitions stop/start after a point is scored and contact to the face is illegal. Karate rules can effect guard/stances and strategies
since i was into shorokan karate, so i refere mostly to that and its spesific competition fighting. semi contact is what the rule are and to the face/head it is supposed to be skin contact, foot/leg sweeps are full on...Yes i pointed out in the other post that the specific rule set may effect how one hold the guard
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Re: Old boxing stance

Postby zrm on Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:16 am

marvin8 wrote:But, power generation is different.


Yes - reminiscent, not the same. Same with Jack Dempsey who's book is quoted a lot for using xing yi like power generation with the "falling step". He uses some of the similar concepts that's all.

His actual fighting style is much closer modern boxing.

1919


He packed a big punch for small guy though. He said he learnt a lot from training with the old bare knuckle boxers like Sullivan.
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