Speedbag, Taiji, WC: bridge gap between striking & grappling

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Speedbag, Taiji, WC: bridge gap between striking & grappling

Postby marvin8 on Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:29 pm

Ramsey Dewey
Dec 16, 2020

Let’s break down my speedbag hand fighting pattern #7 in this continuing series on practical applications of speedbag patterns for real fighting. This hand fighting technique is also found in taijiquan, wingchun, and many other traditional martial arts.

Here are three effective ways to use this hand fighting technique (aka: trapping) to bridge the gap between striking and grappling.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEsYS_R45HM
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Re: Speedbag, Taiji, WC: bridge gap between striking & grappling

Postby Subitai on Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:08 pm

marvin8 wrote:Ramsey Dewey
Dec 16, 2020

Let’s break down my speedbag hand fighting pattern #7 in this continuing series on practical applications of speedbag patterns for real fighting. This hand fighting technique is also found in taijiquan, wingchun, and many other traditional martial arts.

Here are three effective ways to use this hand fighting technique (aka: trapping) to bridge the gap between striking and grappling.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEsYS_R45HM



Wait...forgive my ignorance but Marvin8, are you also Ramsey Dewey? If so, I never knew that.

Ok, watched the vid...pretty cool what "Ramsey" is doing...Good job, I likely. Just want to make a few comments.

He begins by demo'ing the movement of the speed bag and then around 1:34 he says nobody stays in that range.

* Very true, unless you attack your way in to make him bridge you first

----------------------

Then he says so the solution is to Wait To:

1st option, 2:05 Intercept... my gosh...can Bruce Lee ever get any credit. Does nobody ever read him anymore. Just saying.

or 2nd option, wait for him to not back up and then engage and normal.

* THE HANDS DON'T COME BACK EMPTY! Just saying....for the umpteenth time.

-------------------------------------
! The set up to ARM drag pisses me off because that's one of my bread and butters. Stupid Ramsey showing good stuff...dang you... ;D

-----------------------------------
Great entry but... he doesn't really cover how to counter his own method. (Who ever does like to show that however?????????? )

He's not the first to ever use:
Right hand parry down - Left jab and fire back. Or variation, close the gap > Right hand subdue Left guard down and strike off it.
Same with what he's doing with his left arm.

Hint: The way into danger is the way out. too easy. Unless you're tired...haha...nothing is easy if you're gassed.
Last edited by Subitai on Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Speedbag, Taiji, WC: bridge gap between striking & grappling

Postby marvin8 on Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:16 pm

Subitai wrote:Wait...forgive my ignorance but Marvin8, are you also Ramsey Dewey? If so, I never knew that.

Wait...what? No. I am Zhang Weili, remember me—having posted her videos too.

Subitai wrote:Ok, watched the vid...pretty cool what "Ramsey" is doing...Good job, I likely. Just want to make a few comments.

He begins by demo'ing the movement of the speed bag and then around 1:34 he says nobody stays in that range.

* Very true, unless you attack your way in to make him bridge you first

At 1:23, Ramsey says:

Ramsey Dewey wrote:Here’s a big mistake a lot of people make with hand fighting. You’ll see in martial arts like wing chun, where people stand toe to toe. And, they start doing all this hand fighting stuff to try to get in there. Nobody stays there in that range. If we’re really fighting and I’m trying to move Eddie’s hands out of the way so I can hit, look he moved (yielded), right? So, I’m going to have to use my jab and my footwork to determine whether or not Eddie is at a range where I can hand fight with him. If he moves away, he’s too far away. If I start reaching for anything (chasing hands) trying to fight this way, he’s going to punch me in the face. I’m dead, right?...

An example of Ramsey's saying "he moves away (yields)" then "he’s going to punch me in the face:"

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:
everything wrote:Super hypothetically, what happens if someone attacks the rhino guard with one hand to punch with the other hand? Is that a chance to arm wrap?

The moment that A's hand touches on B's rhino guard, the moment that B's rhino guard will be separated into 2 arms. The grappling game will start from there. ...

Image
Image
Image

Subitai wrote:----------------------

Then he says so the solution is to Wait To:

1st option, 2:05 Intercept... my gosh...can Bruce Lee ever get any credit. Does nobody ever read him anymore. Just saying.

or 2nd option, wait for him to not back up and then engage and normal.

* THE HANDS DON'T COME BACK EMPTY! Just saying....for the umpteenth time.

-------------------------------------
! The set up to ARM drag pisses me off because that's one of my bread and butters. Stupid Ramsey showing good stuff...dang you... ;D

-----------------------------------
Great entry but... he doesn't really cover how to counter his own method. (Who ever does like to show that however?????????? )

He's not the first to ever use:
Right hand parry down - Left jab and fire back.
Or variation, close the gap > Right hand subdue Left guard down and strike off it.
Same with what he's doing with his left arm.

At 2:05, Ramsey does not say, "intercept." (Creating a reaction/setting up before "intercepting" leads to a better outcome.) Regardless, Bruce Lee did not invent "Right hand parry down - Left jab and fire back. ..." So, why should Ramsey credit Bruce Lee? Ramsey does mention tai chi and wing chun, which were founded before Bruce was born. He only explains applications of boxing's speed bag exercise. Ramsey never says he invented it.

If one's motto is "THE HANDS DON'T COME BACK EMPTY!," one is more likely to get punched in the face via trying to block, trap and wrap a jab, slower punches, etc. This is evident in the Xu Xiadong fights (e.g, vs Ding Hao, etc.), etc. In boxing they say, "don't look for the knockout." As wing chun, Bruce Lee and Ramsey say just hit unless there is an obstruction—don't chase hands.
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Re: Speedbag, Taiji, WC: bridge gap between striking & grappling

Postby Subitai on Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:05 pm

Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding of your identity .

Ok...were seriously NOT going to argue over shitty fighters VS Xu Xiadong as exemplary are we?

Marvin wrote:
Ramsey Dewey wrote:
Here’s a big mistake a lot of people make with hand fighting. You’ll see in martial arts like wing chun, where people stand toe to toe. And, they start doing all this hand fighting stuff to try to get in there. Nobody stays there in that range. If we’re really fighting and I’m trying to move Eddie’s hands out of the way so I can hit, look he moved (yielded), right? So, I’m going to have to use my jab and my footwork to determine whether or not Eddie is at a range where I can hand fight with him. If he moves away, he’s too far away. If I start reaching for anything (chasing hands) trying to fight this way, he’s going to punch me in the face. I’m dead, right?...


Image


* BOY I GUESS it's not possible is it? Are you going to tell Fedor how much he left himself wide open for a counter punch to his face?

============================================================================================================
I know what Ramsey said...I watched the same video. I still have the same opinion.

1:34 "nobody stays in that range"....

2:05 Option #1 I am the one who said Intercept because that is EXACTLY what he used at that moment.

Then directly after that, Ramsey completely counters his own statement when he gives the 2nd option... that being " wait for him to not back up and then engage and normal. "

* By his own words it means: "His opponent stayed in that range". At least long enough for Ramsey to bridge.

Lastly, yeah I have that motto: "THE HANDS DON'T COME BACK EMPTY!...and if you think it doesn't work, it's only because the examples you posted was people doing it wrong. Or your are completely clueless OR you're trolling me.

For peets sake the very move that Ramsey is using is basically " Hands don't come back empty"

Example, guy strikes at Ramsey repeatedly and Ramsey is lightly parrying in order to "SET IT UP" AND charge in (with his bridges BTW) and after he makes contact (ie bridge) he changes the energy to something else. I.e. he either subdues or wraps out of the way this opponents arms. (Best example, of wrap being an arm drag of course, but it can be more subtle.)

HE EVEN CITES A TAI CHI MOVE in the video...AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT HE'S DOING.

If you think that "Arm Wrapping" for example doesn't exist just because you don't see it often in MMA then i can't help you.

Haven't' you seen fighters throw a strike (ie bridge) and his opponent then puts his guard up (ie block) and then the striker either:
- Pulls his arm down or wipes it away???

ARM WRAPPING is a huge part of "the hands come back empty".

* Striking Example, I fake a low kick and then I punch up high. If the guy runs away way or dodges, no problem keep fighting till you get what you want. If he doesn't run or dodge, and he raises his arms to guard (ie block). Once a strong enough contact is made, you can arm wrap and or arm drag.
* Understanding how to judge the contact level is exactly what Ramsey was doing in the vid.

That is part of, "THE HANDS DON'T COME BACK EMPTY! It's not those piece of shit losers who never fought and just keep their arms up and don't do sh!t with them. How can you even compare?

You gotta be trolling...haha...that's a good one bro. you got me there.
Last edited by Subitai on Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Speedbag, Taiji, WC: bridge gap between striking & grappling

Postby marvin8 on Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:29 pm

Subitai wrote:Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding of your identity .

Yes, I am current UFC Women's Strawweight Champion.

Subitai wrote:Ok...were seriously NOT going to argue over shitty fighters VS Xu Xiadong as exemplary are we?

Ding Hao is a skilled fighter and not the only example, which is why I included, "etc." I also posted Rousey, Olympic judo medalist and former UFC champion—chasing with her arms extended and Nunes yielding, then punching Rousey in the face, as Ramsey explains.

It's not that they are bad fighters. It's they lack the knowledge, training and/or skill to bridge the gap between striking and grappling, which Ramsey demonstrates.

Subitai wrote:Marvin wrote:
Ramsey Dewey wrote:
Here’s a big mistake a lot of people make with hand fighting. You’ll see in martial arts like wing chun, where people stand toe to toe. And, they start doing all this hand fighting stuff to try to get in there. Nobody stays there in that range. If we’re really fighting and I’m trying to move Eddie’s hands out of the way so I can hit, look he moved (yielded), right? So, I’m going to have to use my jab and my footwork to determine whether or not Eddie is at a range where I can hand fight with him. If he moves away, he’s too far away. If I start reaching for anything (chasing hands) trying to fight this way, he’s going to punch me in the face. I’m dead, right?...


Image


* BOY I GUESS it's not possible is it? Are you going to tell Fedor how much he left himself wide open for a counter punch to his face?

You are preaching to the choir. It's not if it works, but how. In your font sizing, you left out "determine whether or not Eddie is at a range where I can hand fight with him. If he moves away, he’s too far away. ..." Ramsey shows when trapping works and doesn't work.

Subitai wrote:============================================================================================================
I know what Ramsey said...I watched the same video. I still have the same opinion.

1:34 "nobody stays in that range"....

2:05 Option #1 I am the one who said Inton ercept because that is EXACTLY what he used at that moment.

Then directly after that, Ramsey completely counters his own statement when he gives the 2nd option... that being " wait for him to not back up and then engage and normal. "

* By his own words it means: "His opponent stayed in that range". At least long enough for Ramsey to bridge.

Again, Ramsey shows there's a timing difference between intercept (reactive) and "#1 Create An Opening ..." (proactive/create intent). If you're arguing trapping works contrary to Ramsey's explanation, please post a video of a wing chun practitioner trapping in a fight.

Subitai wrote:Lastly, yeah I have that motto: "THE HANDS DON'T COME BACK EMPTY!...and if you think it doesn't work, it's only because the examples you posted was people doing it wrong. Or your are completely clueless OR you're trolling me.

For peets sake the very move that Ramsey is using is basically " Hands don't come back empty"

For peets sake the very move that Ramsey is using is basically " Hands don't Example, guy strikes at Ramsey repeatedly and Ramsey is lightly parrying in order to "SET IT UP" AND charge in (with his bridges BTW) and after he makes contact (ie bridge) he changes the energy to something else. I.e. he either subdues or wraps out of the way this opponents arms. (Best example, of wrap being an arm drag of course, but it can be more subtle.)

No, he isn't. Ramsey does not try to grab on every punch. He sets up (e.g., jab) and times when to grapple. Ramsey describes this difference.

Again,
marvin8 wrote:If one's motto is "THE HANDS DON'T COME BACK EMPTY!," one is more likely to get punched in the face via trying to block, trap and wrap a jab, slower punches, etc. ... In boxing they say, "don't look for the knockout." As wing chun, Bruce Lee and Ramsey say just hit unless there is an obstruction—don't chase hands.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exT4II9f08k
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Re: Speedbag, Taiji, WC: bridge gap between striking & grappling

Postby Subitai on Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:10 pm

Congrats on your Title Marvin 8! You had to go there? Are you sure you not a man measuring d!(ks now? haha,

Since you have to throw out your championship for credibility...i'll also throw in that I fought in UFC 7 and the Russian absolute 2 back in 1995...and i'm twice champion in San Shou / San Da in 78kg. I may not be a UFC champion, but don't think for one second that I don't know how to fight. I only say that so you don't think that im some sort of internet keyboard warrior.

However, you are wrong about what Ramsey did at 2:05. At that exact moment...when he closed the gap into his opponent, IMO that was intercept. That's what intercept is, especially when you meet something 1/2 way.

Also, as a fellow fighter I am surprised that you LIMIT the phrase, "The hands don't come back empty". Does that mean every time? No of course not. That's like saying every punch is a knockout. No, some punches are just set ups to a finish.
* You only use it when the time is right.

i'm not saying YOU for this quote, it's just a personal peet peeve:
If a boxer can use a method to set up his a opponent for the later rounds, why can't a kung fu man? See thats the problem with people judging kung fu like it's from the movies. Nothing wrong with a fighter taking his time and choosing to set up his opponent. But NOOOOO...for some reason if I can't kung fu technique you in 2 secs...then it doesn't work right?

===========================================================================================
When you said, "i'm preaching to the Choir"

Marvin8 wrote:
You are preaching to the choir. It's not if it works, but how. In your font sizing, you left out "determine whether or not Eddie is at a range where I can hand fight with him. If he moves away, he’s too far away. ..." Ramsey shows when trapping works and doesn't work.


Yes, perhaps a difference in English and context, but that's what I was also refferring to when I said:

*..... Understanding how to judge the contact level is exactly what Ramsey was doing in the vid.


===========================================================================================
I'm going to make some point about your earlier comments as well:

1st, when you brought up Rhino Guard, that is John Wangs Kung Fu. That's what he does, it's literally his baby. He also uses the concepts of "Hands don't come back empty" especially in Arm Wrapping.

If you deny that, then you are denying that Judo or Shua Jiao is useful for fighting.

2nd, Since you love Rhonda so much...how about a clip of her when shes not at her worst? ... Because every fighter has good days and bad. Image

Ronda punches her way in and never lets go, that is exactly "Her hands never came back empty"

Why the FVDGE are we even arguing? Other than your wrong about intercept. ;D

-------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Speedbag, Taiji, WC: bridge gap between striking & grappling

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:28 am

Surely, Subutai, you wouldn't beat up a girl?
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Re: Speedbag, Taiji, WC: bridge gap between striking & grappling

Postby marvin8 on Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:08 pm

Subitai wrote:Congrats on your Title Marvin 8! ...

Since you have to throw out your championship for credibility...

Apparently, I should have been more clear by adding ;D .

Subitai wrote:However, you are wrong about what Ramsey did at 2:05. At that exact moment...when he closed the gap into his opponent, IMO that was intercept. That's what intercept is, especially when you meet something 1/2 way.

Again, you're taking it out of context. You're missing what Ramsey does before the "intercept." Intercept is only part of the process.

Subitai wrote:Also, as a fellow fighter I am surprised that you LIMIT the phrase, "The hands don't come back empty". Does that mean every time? No of course not. That's like saying every punch is a knockout. No, some punches are just set ups to a finish.
* You only use it when the time is right.

If the hands do "come back empty" at times, then the motto doesn't make sense.

Subitai wrote:i'm not saying YOU for this quote, it's just a personal peet peeve:
If a boxer can use a method to set up his a opponent for the later rounds, why can't a kung fu man? See thats the problem with people judging kung fu like it's from the movies. Nothing wrong with a fighter taking his time and choosing to set up his opponent. But NOOOOO...for some reason if I can't kung fu technique you in 2 secs...then it doesn't work right?

Again, simply post a wing chun or CMA fighter trapping in a fight. It's not "judging kung fu." You either can find a clip of "kung fu" using trapping or not. Ramsey mentions wing chun chi sao training and range, which is different from boxing or MMA. We both have posted clips of trapping in MMA and I in boxing. Also, I have posted videos of CMAists (and Ronda, judoka) extending their arms, chasing hands and getting KO'd.

Subitai wrote:I'm going to make some point about your earlier comments as well:

1st, when you brought up Rhino Guard, that is John Wangs Kung Fu. That's what he does, it's literally his baby. He also uses the concepts of "Hands don't come back empty" especially in Arm Wrapping.

If you deny that, then you are denying that Judo or Shua Jiao is useful for fighting.

I didn't "bring up" Rhino Guard. I posted everything's post asking a question/scenario that Ramsey covers. I replied with clips of Rousey and Nunes, which illustrates what Ramsey discusses in his video.

Subitai wrote:2nd, Since you love Rhonda so much...how about a clip of her when shes not at her worst? ... Because every fighter has good days and bad. Image

Ronda punches her way in and never lets go, that is exactly "Her hands never came back empty"

Right. There is a difference between what Ronda and her opponents do in Ronda's successful clip and unsuccessful clip. This is what Ramsey explains in his video—which you seem to miss.

Subitai wrote:Why the FVDGE are we even arguing? Other than your wrong about intercept. ;D

Either Merriam-Webster Dictionary and others are wrong or you are.
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Re: Speedbag, Taiji, WC: bridge gap between striking & grappling

Postby Subitai on Fri Dec 25, 2020 3:47 pm

Well if you believe me or not (since it's December 25th) I feel the need to say Merry Christmas to all.

Ok back to the thread...

All this started when i made a comment of how I thought Ramsey did a good video...but I wanted to point out a few things.

You also pointed out that im preaching to the choir which means I think we probably agree more than not.

Anyway, I'm not taking things out of context. I was just stating a fact about "Intercept" and that it happen. I don't know why that seemed to bother you?
Which btw in your own words, when you wrote below... you finally admit it. ;D
Marvin8 wrote: Again, you're taking it out of context. You're missing what Ramsey does before the "intercept." Intercept is only part of the process.


I'm not denying that there is more to the process. (the choir here :) ) I'm just glad you admitted that there was an intercept.

BTW, if you go to the link you provided for, Merriam-Webster Dictionary.

Immediately near the top of the page it says,
Definition of intercept (Entry 1 of 2)
transitive verb
1a : to stop, seize, or interrupt in progress or course or before arrival


That its exactly what i was referring to at 2:05. Ramsey, stopped (interrupted the progress of his opponent) before arrival.

The fact that you are speaking about what Ramsey did before the intercept is actually what I meant when I said in my 1st post:

....Ramsey is lightly parrying in order to "SET IT UP" ....
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Re: Speedbag, Taiji, WC: bridge gap between striking & grappling

Postby Subitai on Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:10 pm

Also, another thing...

You cannot be so severely FIXATED on the term / definition of, "The hand don't come back empty". Open your mind.

Why do I say that? Because you cannot ever use that term as an absolute. It's impossible! If I punch at you and you dodge, meaning I don't ever touch / bridge with you at all (JUST AIR)....then what is there to bring back? Nothing, so how could this concept be an absolute?

* That would be silly, "Uh oh, I punched and came back empty...now what do i do? " It wouldn't make sense.

If other teachers choose to teach it that way...then I believe that is a weakness to get them in trouble. That's not how I learned. As a fighter you must agree in flexibility to adapt.

I don't want to comment on what Wing Chun guys do or any other style. Fighting is fighting and really the only way to prove what works.
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Re: Speedbag, Taiji, WC: bridge gap between striking & grappling

Postby marvin8 on Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:15 pm

Subitai wrote:Well if you believe me or not (since it's December 25th) I feel the need to say Merry Christmas to all.

Merry Christmas

Subitai wrote:All this started when i made a comment of how I thought Ramsey did a good video...but I wanted to point out a few things.

You also pointed out that im preaching to the choir which means I think we probably agree more than not.

It's not clear what you're arguing. We know intercept/trapping works, not necessary to say/preach it. The question is how, without getting punched in the face—which Ramsey explains.

Subitai wrote:Anyway, I'm not taking things out of context. I was just stating a fact about "Intercept" and that it happen. I don't know why that seemed to bother you?
Which btw in your own words, when you wrote below... you finally admit it. ;D
Marvin8 wrote: Again, you're taking it out of context. You're missing what Ramsey does before the "intercept." Intercept is only part of the process.


I'm not denying that there is more to the process. (the choir here :) ) I'm just glad you admitted that there was an intercept.

BTW, if you go to the link you provided for, Merriam-Webster Dictionary.

Immediately near the top of the page it says,
Definition of intercept (Entry 1 of 2)
transitive verb
1a : to stop, seize, or interrupt in progress or course or before arrival


That its exactly what i was referring to at 2:05. Ramsey, stopped (interrupted the progress of his opponent) before arrival.

The fact that you are speaking about what Ramsey did before the intercept is actually what I meant when I said in my 1st post:

....Ramsey is lightly parrying in order to "SET IT UP" ....

You seem to be arguing with yourself and agreeing with Ramsey. Yes, Ramsey shows how to intercept/trap but, without getting punched in the face.
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Re: Speedbag, Taiji, WC: bridge gap between striking & grappling

Postby marvin8 on Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:22 pm

Subitai wrote:Also, another thing...

You cannot be so severely FIXATED on the term / definition of, "The hand don't come back empty". Open your mind.

Why do I say that? Because you cannot ever use that term as an absolute. It's impossible! If I punch at you and you dodge, meaning I don't ever touch / bridge with you at all (JUST AIR)....then what is there to bring back? Nothing, so how could this concept be an absolute?

* That would be silly, "Uh oh, I punched and came back empty...now what do i do? " It wouldn't make sense.

If other teachers choose to teach it that way...then I believe that is a weakness to get them in trouble. That's not how I learned. As a fighter you must agree in flexibility to adapt.

... which is why it's not a good saying. You can't just say it without explaining as you have. It appears to contradict itself and the term, "Don't chase hands." Maybe a grappler said that and it applies to grappling, not a fight.

Subitai wrote:I don't want to comment on what Wing Chun guys do or any other style. Fighting is fighting and really the only way to prove what works.

I only asked if you are able to post a video of wing chun trapping in a fight. Per Ramsey, wing chun spends much of it's training in chi sao. However, it doesn't work like that. Because, people move (yield/lu) then punch (ji) you in the face.
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