The invention of martial arts

A collection of links to internal martial arts videos. Serious martial arts videos ONLY. Joke videos go to Off the Topic.

Re: The invention of martial arts

Postby Trick on Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:37 am

Steve James wrote:Yeah, but what did the Norsemen call their "martial art"? Better yet, how about the Anglo-Saxons? Linguistically, 'martial' comes from the Latin languages, and simply means related to war (actually their god of war). But, all tournaments and competitions were dedicated to Mars, and that's the relation to sport --aopt to training.

Average people were often not allowed to "study" war and have weapons. But, they had to fight, so means of self-defense had to exist, and usage would inevitably lead to some form of systemization. Irish stick fighting or Haitian machete fighting are examples. However, imo, the reason we call them martial arts nowadays is because they're being acknowledged in comparison to Asian martial arts post 1960s.

It's also true that there are "martial arts" practiced today where there is no war, competition, or sport. I.e., some would say they are just dancing; others would say that they're done for health.

Ah yes of course I didn’t reflect “Martial” derives from “Mars”(the Roman war god)...The Norse god of war was Tyr, but no trace of his name in the Scandinavian word Kamp(fight) which is in the names Kamp Sport and Kamp Konst(Art)
I wanted to reflect how the makings has change I Sweden..Let’s say as pointed out in the OP that martial arts didn’t make its public establishment until in the 1970’s, and yes back then I would say that all Japanese and Chinese martial arts in Sweden belonged to Kamp Konst(MA’s) while Boxing and wrestling where Kamp(martial) Sport, but about a decade later some Japanese martial arts where more and more put in the Sport category....even the Judo branch of the Swedish Budo Association broke away to form its own association with the slogan “Judo isn’t Budo” kind of meaning it’s not Art anymore, it’s a sport.

And as I I mentioned today it’s mainly Aikido that keep to the Art of Martial Art, while while everything else basically adhere to Martial Sport...I think with the introduction of the UFC and it’s MMA made the “Sport” naming became more popular.........Well, that would be in Sweden then 8-)
Trick
Anjing
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:51 pm

Re: The invention of martial arts

Postby Trick on Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:47 am

Yes, this is an English speaking forum, and yes in English “martial Art” seem to be the “only” word used but does other cultures use “art” in their wording for pugilistic/wrestlinistic activities.....Yes in Sweden they do, but martial sport is more common.....How about in other cultures?
Trick
Anjing
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:51 pm

Re: The invention of martial arts

Postby Trick on Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:54 am

. we have to discuss Glima, which is full of it's own sorts of problems....
Glima - glimma, in English glimmering, it actually refers to lightning strike, something very quick, which describe how an technique should be applied, so quick and unexpected so impossible to defend against..........I’ll add.
Lightning strike is associated to Thor the god of thunder, and Thor is often associated to planet Mars....However the Norse god of war is Thor’s brother Tyr.......The Scandinavian Martial Art Glima came into the world after Thor had to wrestle Loki’s old wet nurse and looses....Yes it’s getting complicated 8-)
Last edited by Trick on Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Trick
Anjing
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:51 pm

Re: The invention of martial arts

Postby Bao on Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:01 am

Trick wrote:I wanted to reflect how the makings has change I Sweden..Let’s say as pointed out in the OP that martial arts didn’t make its public establishment until in the 1970’s, and yes back then I would say that all Japanese and Chinese martial arts in Sweden belonged to Kamp Konst(MA’s) while Boxing and wrestling where Kamp(martial) Sport, but about a decade later some Japanese martial arts where more and more put in the Sport category....even the Judo branch of the Swedish Budo Association broke away to form its own association with the slogan “Judo isn’t Budo” kind of meaning it’s not Art anymore, it’s a sport.


I don't know... You are probably a bit older than me and maybe remember things better. But as far as I remember everything was called kampsport - "sport" and Chinese martial arts was regarded as Chinese "Karate", even in the middle of the 80s Kung Fu movies were called "Karate movies" and the translated names of HK movies sometimes had "Karate" in them. The comic and character Shang-Chi - The Master of Kung Fu was printed in Sweden in 1974-75 as "Hand's of Shang Chi - The Master of Karate". And Karate had always been labelled "Sport", not art.

The development and knowledge of Martial Arts in Sweden, and Chinese arts especially, has always been at least 10 years behind the UK, maybe 15-20 years behind USA. Almost everyone thought that Kung Fu just one style and almost no one had heard the name "Tai Chi" until 1989-1990. Most people believe that Tai Chi Chuan was introduced in Sweden around this time and only as a health exercise. However this is not true as Tai Chi has been practiced publicly in Sweden at least since 1968 and already back then focusing on the art as a Martial Art and self-defence.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 7807
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: The invention of martial arts

Postby Steve James on Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:02 am

Well, imo, what Asian (specifically Chinese) martial arts have that distinguishes them is the integration of music, 'home" medicine, and folk religion. Boxing culture has nothing to compare to Chinese opera. Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung, and Jet Li came out of that tradition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcIHJzqE96A

Sure. Fencing is an art, sport, and was used to fight. The Scots, Poles, and Slavic peoples have sword dances. I have no clue about Swedish or Norse traditions. If the tendency to categorize all combat sports as martial arts began in the US/UK (spurred primarily by the return of soldiers after WW2), it's clear that the idea of connecting them to music, dance, medicine, and religion simply didn't happen to traditional western combat sports.

From my perspective, a couple of things happened. When people asked whether boxing was a martial art, what standard could they use except the idea that tjq (for ex) was a form of pugilism. The question was whether it could be used to fight. Bruce Lee's mission was to show that CMA (aka gongfu) was effective. Ime, most of the people who began learning way back then compared their practice against the other combat sports. Iow, through competition.

However, otoh, tjq is just a name, and to the Chinese, its benefits and application had never been purely combat oriented. So, there were, and still are, people who'll say that tjq is just a health dance or meditation in motion, and not particularly useful for fighting. And, I'd argue that that's precisely what makes it a martial art in the sense Dong Hai Chuan or Sun Lu Tang, etc., might have. It's theoretically possible to disconnect bagua from circle walking or the concept of the ba gua, but .... Oh, is Taebo a martial art? Betcha Billy Blanks can still kick you ssa.:)
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 19772
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: The invention of martial arts

Postby Trick on Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:40 am

. I don't know... You are probably a bit older than me and maybe remember things better. But as far as I remember everything was called kampsport - "sport" and Chinese martial arts was regarded as Chinese "Karate"
yes I’ll guess I’m older however Chinese Karate was not around when I grew up it was KungFu, however in the US it might have been Chinese Karate in the 60’s and earlier......Anyway Kung-Fu Clubs was almost non existent in Sweden when I grew up...and actually one guy that inspired me to take up...Karate was “Shang-Chi mästaren på Karate” as the comic magazine name was(early 70’s). ...so I give you a little right there 8-)
Last edited by Trick on Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
Trick
Anjing
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:51 pm

Re: The invention of martial arts

Postby robert on Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:48 am

Steve James wrote:Boxing culture has nothing to compare to Chinese opera. Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung, and Jet Li came out of that tradition.

Jet Li was on the Beijing Wushu team. He was a wushu star before becoming a movie star.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Huajing
 
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: The invention of martial arts

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:22 pm

When I started Tang Shou Tao in 1973 It was called Chinese Karate as no one knew what Kung fu was
TST was the same characters that karate used before they changed the one for tang to empty
The same is true of Tae Kwon Do it was originally tong soo do
China hand way
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 3859
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: The invention of martial arts

Postby Steve James on Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:18 pm

robert wrote:
Steve James wrote:Boxing culture has nothing to compare to Chinese opera. Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung, and Jet Li came out of that tradition.

Jet Li was on the Beijing Wushu team. He was a wushu star before becoming a movie star.


My point was that Beijing Wushu tradition was related to the Beijing Opera --not the acting or singing, but the ma training.
Anyway, at the time, Jet Li was the youngest member of the team. I think the announcer said he was 12 or younger. At that time, he was a star on the squad, but I don't think the PRC was thinking about movies that much in 1980. I do think the was promoted by them. I can't think of any other ma star from the PRC. There were Bruce Lee imitators and Jackie Chan until the 1990s. At least ime.

But, ok, forget Li. Wushu, like opera, was primarily a performance. It's the show aspect that's traditional. It's the difference between stuff practiced in costumes and stuff practiced in t-shirts.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 19772
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: The invention of martial arts

Postby Steve James on Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:32 pm

wayne hansen wrote:When I started Tang Shou Tao in 1973 It was called Chinese Karate as no one knew what Kung fu was
TST was the same characters that karate used before they changed the one for tang to empty
The same is true of Tae Kwon Do it was originally tong soo do
China hand way


Oh yeah, I remember people saying Japanese karate, Chinese karate, and Korean karate. We found out about Chinese karate from Ed Parker's book by that name (in 64, iinm). In the book, though, it was called kenpo. Only a few years later, the movie Billy Jack came out. But, I don't think anyone knew it was hapkido until after the Kung Fu tv show and Enter the Dragon. People became more interested in "styles."

With the 90s came the UFC, which offered a direct comparison of styles. And, then the concept of "mma" was invented --though it had always been practiced in reality.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 19772
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: The invention of martial arts

Postby robert on Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:25 pm

Steve James wrote:Wushu, like opera, was primarily a performance. It's the show aspect that's traditional. It's the difference between stuff practiced in costumes and stuff practiced in t-shirts.

Wushu is martial arts. The competitions in China include sanda. When they tour they perform. There's a difference.

Steve James wrote:My point was that Beijing Wushu tradition was related to the Beijing Opera --not the acting or singing, but the ma training.

In Chinese Opera they do CMAs so I'd say the Chinese Opera training is partially related to CMA training. I did some workshops with Zhang Huasen back in the late 1990s. He was in the Beijing Opera for 20 years or so. He said the training was brutal. He later trained for 30 years with Li Ziming. He also trained acting and singing.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Huajing
 
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: The invention of martial arts

Postby Steve James on Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:58 pm

Wushu is martial arts. The competitions in China include sanda. When they tour they perform. There's a difference.


I never said they were the same thing. I can't say I saw any sanda in the 70s or at the Beijing Wushu tour. Wushu, not "gongfu," but specifically the performances with double butterfly kicks, etc., only became popular and well known here in the 80s, and only because China became more open and westerners began to study there.

Wushu was definitely contrasted with the tcma styles and family styles. There were no wushu practitioners in full contact or other combat sports competitions, including sanda. Wushu became a category for how a particular style was performed. Anyway, as you say, "wushu" is an equivalent term to martial art, but it's not "a" martial art, even if all the practitioners are fine martial artists.

Anyway, some argue that the Chinese Opera goes back to the Tang dynasty and the origins of martial arts from Shaolin. My point was that the aspects of dance, religions, and combat practices were combined from the beginning --in ways that make cmas different from western boxing, for eg.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 19772
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: The invention of martial arts

Postby Trick on Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:21 pm

https://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread ... su-pioneer
An E-Budo thread that deal about Martial Art(or sport)(mainly Japanese martial art-Jujutsu )history in the west.....It was very involved with the ‘sports’ communities(boxing, wrestling, gymnastics) in the early 1900.....
And this I should know about(if I just used my head a little) since the sport club I studied karate at in Sweden that is probably one of the oldest still going strong “martial arts/sport” clubs in Europe started out as an gymnastic/wrestling/boxing club in 1892
Trick
Anjing
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:51 pm

Re: The invention of martial arts

Postby Trick on Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:23 pm

wayne hansen wrote:When I started Tang Shou Tao in 1973 It was called Chinese Karate as no one knew what Kung fu was
TST was the same characters that karate used before they changed the one for tang to empty
The same is true of Tae Kwon Do it was originally tong soo do
China hand way

Interesting, in the late 70’s a Japanese teacher opened a MA club in my hometown, he called it ‘Nord(north) Shaolin Kung Fu’ , if he would have called it Shorinji-Kempo which was what he taught nobody would have know what that was if they didn’t see it in action....He had an school in Denmark too which he had opened in 1972.....
Previous he had lived for some time in Taiwan learning among things Xingyiquan...
Trick
Anjing
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:51 pm

Re: The invention of martial arts

Postby Trick on Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:42 pm

Bao wrote:
Trick wrote:
. Why was it asked whether boxing or wrestling were martial arts or not? Or, when and why was this difference invented?
Martial arts.. the “art” may refer to what by many is seen as an sort of performance art -kata , taolu......Which western Boxing and wrestling do not have..So perhaps the name “martial art” came along by westerners when the East Asian combat practice methods where introduced to westerners....?


You (both of you) forget the expression "The Noble Art of Boxing." How old this is I don't know exactly. But from what I have found, it is mentioned in print, in English books dating as early as 1755. I have also found a sign on a door mentioned in a history book that is supposed to have been dated from about the 1720s with the inscription: "The Academy of the noble art of boxing."
.

So I’m pondering on the phrases ‘noble art of boxing’ and ‘noble art of self defense’....
When these phrases were coined it seem “Boxing” was compared to other methods of “artfully” boxing and self defence methods...which where those methods? - East Asian, or perhaps Greco Roman wrestling, or maybe most probably Boxe Française that make use of kicking which may have been considered un noble? As it(kicking)was considered when I as a kid growing up in the 1970’s , the older generation said if fight only fist allowed, and no hitting on an downed opponent since that and kicking at someone was an ugly act of an coward.
Maybe the phrases ‘noble art of boxing/self defense’ came around with the introduction of Queensberry rules ?
However my suggested martial arts/sports here may not be valid since the year 1720 is mentioned...so in short which were the un noble arts
Last edited by Trick on Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Trick
Anjing
 
Posts: 148
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:51 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Video Links

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests