the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Very nicely made video from the Karate Nerd on the origins of the high kicks in Karate.

But are the 4 phases superior to the 5 Elements, and are they internal? The quest continues...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQUh5tVWd-E

Now we know when and how Japanese Karate began to drift away from its Okinawan roots and became a sport like Judo.

Can’t see the video..has it anything to do with shoes ? Savate(the word))is supposed to mean something as -old shoe....

Trick wrote:Can’t see the video..has it anything to do with shoes ? Savate(the word))is supposed to mean something as -old shoe....

The video is called "How Karate stole its kicks"

"Karate kicks are effective. But high kicks are not found in Okinawa - the birthplace of Karate. For example, there's not a single traditional kata that contains mawashi geri (roundhouse kick). Yet it's used constantly in modern Karate - especially kumite. High kicks are actually the top scoring sparring techniques. But the old Karate pioneers, i.e. Gichin Funakoshi, Motobu Choki, Chojun Miyagi and Mabuni Kenwa never taught such techniques. So where did these flashy kicks come from? And why did they become so popular in modern Karate? The answer might shock you... "

It's more in it as well as about practice and the point system in Karate competitions. Karate took a whole bunch of things from the West.

Yes! It is a video about shoes.

So the Japanese never saw anything from northern China just France

wayne hansen wrote:So the Japanese never saw anything from northern China just France

Yes, that's exactly what this video is saying. You are a genius.

Wayne

To think the Japanese may have been influenced by China is just too incredible to believe. Its like saying BJJ was influenced by Judo.

And even if its correct does it make a difference ? All it says is martial arts in Japan may have been evolving, who would have thought.

So the vid say modern karate kicks was taken from French Savate ? It sound weird a little...
The “original new” high roundhouse kick was done with the ball of the foot, while the “old” (high)roundhouse kick was delivered with the whole sole of the foot, same as seen in wushu performances....
Very early on from karate was introduced to mainland Japan ppl from Korean communities participated in the practice......Early TKD was basically Shotokan karate, at least when it came to its kata/form and prearranged sparring drill syllabus. Perhaps some kicking of Korean MA was introduced to the original karate of Funakoshi during this time?
It is well known Funakoshi and Kano(of judo) collaborated, and also ideas from Kendo was adopted into the new Karate and its strive to become a sport. I’ll guess in Kendo strike to the head gives highes point ?
Oyama the Kyokushin karate founder(an Korean that briefly studied Shotokan)had some of his students go to Thailand to challenge the fighters there...perhaps it’s from there the roundhousekick to the head we usually see nowadays in karate came from ?
Savate, one interesting thing I read somewhere some time ago had in its founding days been inspired by the boxing of Thailand,perhaps it was Siam back then....
Also interesting, the very first written in English account of Karate it say it has its origin in Siam........And that’s something I first read about at the Karate nerds webpage

So the vid say modern karate kicks was taken from French Savate ? It sound weird a little...

Why do assume that he is speculating without even watching the video?
Why should he make up things?

He explains the history in the video. Explains, in detail, with examples. And pictures.

I didn't think you were astute enough to recognise your better Grahame but I thank you for your observations
Siam,China ,Korea could all have an influence and seeing they all predate savate unless you have documented evidence
It is all conjecture
I will even throw in India lots of high kicks there
If it came from France you would think someone would have mentioned it before now

There's no point arguing with people who don't know how to understand an argument or watch a video properly, so yes Wayne, you are right. Well done.

Bao wrote:

So the vid say modern karate kicks was taken from French Savate ? It sound weird a little...

Why do assume that he is speculating without even watching the video?
Why should he make up things?

He explains the history in the video. Explains, in detail, with examples. And pictures.

I wrote with an question mark, suggesting an question

"I haven't bothered to watch the video, but let me make a bunch of snarky comments about it anyway!"

Seems like a theme here.

The narrator claims that it's not possible to find kicks in any original karate source until a particular date. Whether they knew about kicks in other arts is irrelevant. They didn't use them. The problem that some saw was that there was no established method of "safe" karate competition and sparring, the way there was for judo. So, when they were introduced to French savate, they saw a method they could use.

He supports his argument by pointing to the manuals and practices used after that exposure. He even directly compares drawings from savate manuals to those in later karate manuals. He also explains the similarity to karate point fighting.

Yeah, if you don't watch the video, the premise sounds strange. Anyway, I agree with his argument about why kicks weren't originally in much karate. His point is that karate developed from weapons usage, and kicks weren't part of the arsenal. Well, I don't think I've ever seen Mifune kicking, or kendoka, etc. In savate, however, the legs were used like swords.

Btw, years ago, I used to hear the idea that the Southern styles didn't use a lot of high kicking compared to the Northern styles.