What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby co-lee on Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:40 pm

wayne hansen wrote:7 point push is a rare gem but not how I see it done today
All of Huangs pushing exercises are real gems
3 I would practice above all are
7 point
Single arm drop
Double Shoulder with no ward off
It's a pity that Huang had such a large following and yet there are so few of his senior students about today


I don't know single arm drop or double shoulder, or at least not by those names. Although I can't think of any of the patterns I learned that would match those names.

Huang seems to have had a real gift for creating exercises that had an awful lot of key stuff in them. I'm grateful for the bits that have come to me.
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Doc Stier on Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:42 pm

Bhassler wrote:Sorry, Doc, I got my Mizner threads confused. ::)

I (mis)took your comments in the light of a number of material objections to what Mizner shows overall that have been discussed recently in other threads. From that perspective, I read your comments about subjective bias to be a bit dismissive of some real concerns that had been raised. I see now that you were most likely responding to other stuff. I mean, I guess it's the internet, so I should desperately try to protect my "reputation" with a bunch of people I don't even know and insist that you are really uncomfortable about people discussing whether or not 4 oz. is a ratio, but it's late and I don't have the energy. I'll try to get to some hardcore trolling later this week... ;D

Haha! Copy that. No worries. We're good. Thanks for clarifying. 8-)
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Quigga on Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:03 am

Doc Stier wrote:Martial art videos of any kind from anyone seem to draw reactions oftentimes based mostly on subjective biases regarding the personality and presentation of the performer, rather than offering any real substantive assessment of the video content. These are usually knee jerk reactions at best.

The obvious realization that others do things differently or explain things differently than we prefer to doesn't nullify our own experience or understanding of the subject matter in any way whatsoever. Others don't have to be proven wrong in order to prove ourselves right, thereby justifying the differences. Kudos to anyone who doesn't do that.

We are all exactly where we have earned the right to currently be based upon the results of our own study and training efforts thus far. Only you can train for you. Thus, everything and everyone else is essentially irrelevant.


The personality and presentation are part of the video content and deserve discussion, too :-\ I don't know how you live without subjective bias to anything. That would make all experience one gathered in life useless.

If your concern is that people feel invalidated and can't handle different viewpoints on practice... I find that your post belongs to a kindergarten. No offense.

Without proving some people wrong, can you be so right in your view at all ???

Only you can train for you... duh. I guess there's no value to setting standards because everyone's experience in something is equally valuable?

Everything and everyone else is essentially irrelevant... ::)
Then let's close this board and everybody trains in their own small universe :-\

If there are other boards with such density of skilled practitioners, please let me know :D

---
I find the 4 oz discussion interesting. And rather sad to see that at some point, the meaning was clear, had a clear standard, and now it doesn't anymore.
I thought about what could weigh 4oz but everything I thought of was too heavy. Not a breath, not the genitals, not the brain. Idk.

Leading an ox by the nose ring... Maybe if one's cultivation is far enough, the animal nature in the other's body bends it's will naturally to the superior condition and energetic balance of my own being? Resistance is futile :-*
---

Giles, I find the discussion of whether or not such skills are most likely to be found in IMA exhausting... obviously they are, yes. Or they should be. Results of dropping standards.
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Trick on Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:14 am

GrahamB wrote:Only one thing for it now, after Jake Paul vs Ben Askren...

YouTube celebrity boxing match:

Mizner vs Xu xiaodong
Askren vs Mizner
Jake Paul vs Mizner

I’d watch all 3!

I would like to see the celebrity death match between Grahame and Adam.....
The kind of where look alike animated clay figures rip each other apart...

But then maybe I wouldn’t watch cause for it being an Taiji vs Jiou jiutsy bout the two figures will probably just cozy up into if not a thousand pounds but yet excessive chunk of clay...boring
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Bao on Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:16 am

co-lee wrote:. I recall him talking about another student from whom he'd deliberately held back key details about what he was teaching. Not too surprising that he and that student had a falling out. Presumably he held back similar info from me, in the guise of "the system" and you need to learn these other things first.


This is a very common thing. I’ve had one teacher that holds things back and really don’t want anyone else to learn. This person is one of very few people I have met that I would call “the real deal”, much better, more gifted and genuine than Mizner. He would show and demonstrate things on anyone, but not really teach anything else than basics. First when I stopped listening to his nonsense and instead only focused on what he did and how he felt, I started to really learn from him. From then on, I have always found what people do much more valuable than what they say.


As far as the demos, he's a teacher who is more than willing to hurt his students. Getting injured is a norm. This may explain some of the tentative "attacks" you see students do in the demos. And he's very aware of the camera and what he perceives his market as wanting. At least when I initially spent time with him, he was real different than that one-on-one. Although the cameras got a lot more present over time.


Weird then that so many stay with him and that he keeps on growing his biz. I guess people are more willing to play along if they are worried about getting hurt. But those we see in his videos are always his senior students with their own schools and they have their own personal interests to make their “master” look good.

However, I wouldn't suggest anyone else study with him or his senior students. Especially not if you're a woman. I think you can get similar teaching elsewhere without the baggage. And that's about all I've got to say.


Thanks for sharing your experience. It’s always interesting to hear from people who have been there.
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby dspyrido on Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:23 am

Doc Stier wrote:We are all exactly where we have earned the right to currently be based upon the results of our own study and training efforts thus far. Only you can train for you. Thus, everything and everyone else is essentially irrelevant.


Agreed that the study is in your hands but therein lies the problem ...

Imagine starting the martial journey. We might have an earnest instructor/coach telling us "do your basics". Lots of drills, sweating, effort and small incremental advancement. Then along comes the showman. The video angles are right. The student reactions are astounding. The praise runs wild with "you need to touch this guru" or "skills are incredible" etc etc.

Imagine spending years with them only to be told they are holding back. Or to discover that really the only reason it took years is because of the social engineering they applied that meant you could never really test them.

Reflect on the time wasted in pursuit of learning a few staged tricks, esotericism that has been washed over so many times it has lost its meaning or choreographed moves that are near useless in a fight.

Do we blame the misguided student who never owned their training or the person who knowingly took advantage of them?

Anyway mizner. Yet another silly video of over reaction.

Someone please post the real deal videos of TC or other. Preferably showing it applied on aggressive humans vs. bouncing manikins. Worse case at least on students that are giving it a go.
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Trick on Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:40 am

. Especially not if you're a woman."

I think you need to elaborate on that. Why, exactly?
now there can be speculated a couple of reasons for that, but maybe it’s already explained in that post the quotes from, that he has a rough to the point of hurting approach toward his students.....Perhaps he doesn’t make a difference whether men or women ?........However from the information about him going rough on his students, maybe that’s only for the ones that comes to his place to study? The few vids I can see on the Chinese tubes are mostly from seminar settings, and there he seem to go easy
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Giles on Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:36 am

Bao wrote:Weird then that so many stay with him and that he keeps on growing his biz. I guess people are more willing to play along if they are worried about getting hurt. But those we see in his videos are always his senior students with their own schools and they have their own personal interests to make their “master” look good.


As you surely recognize, the personality/style/aura etc. of a teacher (assuming that the teacher has something interesting to offer) will often over time attract a certain type of student/follower. Not always, depends on the extent to which a teacher knowingly or unknowingly offers himself as a 'projection surface' for the students' own desires and longings - which are almost always rooted in their earlier/childhood biographies. All kinds of subtexts and symbiotic (albeit usually not symmetrical) relationships and 'energies' can develop over time. Especially if on some levels at least the teacher is giving the student valuable teaching/training.
This isn't automatically a terrible thing and to some extent it's almost always present. More important is how strong this aspect is (even if it's not consciously acknowledged). And even more so, whether the teacher is creating (consciously or unconsciously) a construct where the students, in important (and non-beneficial) ways, are there for him instead of he being there for the students.

Some students may start to feel uncomfortable or unhappy about this, either quickly or over the course of time, and will leave. For other students, the 'hooks and eyes' of the symbiotic interaction will keep them there because at some levels it feels really 'cool', 'strong', 'elevated', 'fills a gap' etc. It also offers a model for how they can interact with their own students. Although one always has the free will not to reproduce the same structures in one's own garden.

But we all have our weaknesses and blind spots, it's just good to try to be aware of them. I've had phases in my own learning and even more so in my own teaching where I needed to question myself and start doing things differently. Work in progress.
Last edited by Giles on Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby denchen on Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:08 am

As a side note the way his training area is tiled seems designed to highlight his 'explosive' jin.

You can see his student trying to root himself without much success, before being propelled across the floor.

Student's rigid structure also helps the set up, would look different against relaxed resistance outside or on matts
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Steve James on Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:13 am

If a student is happy with what they're being taught, it just causes violence to disagree. It's the same as disputing their religion. They wouldn't practice it if they didn't think it was worth it.

The problem is even more pronounced in the taiji (ima) world where almost no one agrees on a standard. There's this taiji and that taiji. And, there are lots of people who've done this or that one for many years. Yet, there'll still be someone saying that they've wasted their time.

I think people are attaching way too much value to knowing they're doing the right taiji aopt just enjoying what they're doing. Yeah, that means that it's inevitable that some people will just be fooling themselves. But, so what? Most "martial artists" die of natural causes.
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:45 am

Quigga wrote:
Doc Stier wrote:Martial art videos of any kind from anyone seem to draw reactions oftentimes based mostly on subjective biases regarding the personality and presentation of the performer, rather than offering any real substantive assessment of the video content. These are usually knee jerk reactions at best.

The obvious realization that others do things differently or explain things differently than we prefer to doesn't nullify our own experience or understanding of the subject matter in any way whatsoever. Others don't have to be proven wrong in order to prove ourselves right, thereby justifying the differences. Kudos to anyone who doesn't do that.

We are all exactly where we have earned the right to currently be based upon the results of our own study and training efforts thus far. Only you can train for you. Thus, everything and everyone else is essentially irrelevant.


The personality and presentation are part of the video content and deserve discussion, too :-\ I don't know how you live without subjective bias to anything. That would make all experience one gathered in life useless.

If your concern is that people feel invalidated and can't handle different viewpoints on practice... I find that your post belongs to a kindergarten. No offense.

Without proving some people wrong, can you be so right in your view at all ???

Only you can train for you... duh. I guess there's no value to setting standards because everyone's experience in something is equally valuable?

Everything and everyone else is essentially irrelevant... ::)
Then let's close this board and everybody trains in their own small universe :-\

If there are other boards with such density of skilled practitioners, please let me know :D

Another emotional knee jerk reaction. No offense. ;)
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:14 am

denchen wrote:As a side note the way his training area is tiled seems designed to highlight his 'explosive' jin.

You can see his student trying to root himself without much success, before being propelled across the floor.

Student's rigid structure also helps the set up, would look different against relaxed resistance outside or on matts


Kind of depends if what is being demonstrated is a demonstration of “Jin”
or not.

Relaxation is relative, partially why the proverbial 4 ounces is used as a starting point in order to gauge the level and ability of one’s touch. If one is able to use this, one is not engaging with the structure at all.
If one does engage with structure it’s not any different from anything else that depends on the structure.



A key point mentioned in the demo is that “ Jin “ penetrates. Something to consider in watching demos.

Try this.

have someone placed their hand between one’s hand and the point of contact.
See if the other person is moved or reacts to the contact with little or no pressure reported felt on the hand that is between the point of contact.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:25 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:41 am

denchen wrote:As a side note the way his training area is tiled seems designed to highlight his 'explosive' jin.

You can see his student trying to root himself without much success, before being propelled across the floor.

Student's rigid structure also helps the set up, would look different against relaxed resistance outside or on matts



One cannot counter what they cannot feel.
Which is what most question.

Why they don’t do this, or that, if someone did this etc.

All possible if they can feel and understand what is being done, in time.
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby windwalker on Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:24 am

marvin8 wrote:Discover Taiji
Apr 17, 2021

What is Taichi power (Jin / Energy / 勁) really like? Is it the same as power generated by other sports, martial arts and other physical methods? Is Taichi internal energy really different? How does Taichi neutralizing (Hua / 化) and seizing (Na / 拿) happen? Sifu Adam Mizner SHOWS CLEARLY how true Taichi Jin is applied! DEMONSTRATES how "four ounces defeats a thousand pounds" just like the Taichi Classics say. Are you developing Taichi power like this? How is Taichi Jin developed in your practice?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF6KSsrFyoA


Thread draft etc.

Aside from personality, and inferred problems

How many agree with or not, with the explanations given
How many can do what is shown in the demo

What he outlines is common, many other teachers explain what’s happening in this way.
The “demo “ shown also common among those having the same skill sets, teaching or using it to show explain a skill set

He mentions levels of understanding and ability, attempting to focus on some key points that he illustrates during his demo.

Seems very standard “stuff” for most “demos “
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Re: What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:45 am

windwalker wrote:
How many agree with or not, with the explanations given
How many can do what is shown in the demo



I can pull this specific skill off in noncompliant push hands. I practice Mizners versions of huang's exercises, but the explanation I found most useful towards getting it was Liang De Hua's explanation of not using force against force and thinking past the point of contact. Mizner addresses the same concept in other instructional material though from a slightly different perspective.
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