What is Taichi Jin Power Really Like? Sifu Adam Mizner

[Trick]

. Please name some who have the goods

most onboard this board ?

[Bao]

. Please name some who have the goods

most onboard this board ?

What goods? What do you mean by "goods"? How should it be shown or represented?

[Quigga]

My view as of yet is:

Tai Chi means One Supreme Unified Energy. The harmony of Yin and Yang in every body part in every move. Yin Yang is there when I reach out with my arm. I could use more + or - in a move, yet Tai Chi dictates that both energies are equally present in every limb at all times - so that wouldn't be Tai Chi.

When I reach out, there are equal parts pulling in. When I pull in, there are equal parts reaching out. Expanding is contracting, contracting is expanding. On the outside it looks like moving, but it feels like one isn't moving at all.
It doesn't feel like the physical body is moving, yet there is change on the outside. The energy flowing in magnetic/electric lines is always equal so I can always change according to necessity.

This doesn't mean stagnant. Dividing a pipe with a straight segment of metal inside, running cold water in one segment, running hot water in the other segment. Both flow. Yet the pipe will be pleasant to touch, merely warm, not hot or cold. Ideal conditions for life.
( I guess the pipe must be long enough. Don't sue me when you burn your fingers )

Stillness in movement, movement in stillness. Different Tai Chi symbols, different skills. 'Central equilibrium'. The mind can't be in mine or the other's body when applying force or it gets stuck there. The mind has to be empty, everywhere and nowhere. Quiet the mind, empty the head and simultaneously fill so it can shine, reverse the light of creation. Knowing without knowing.

If you fixate the mind on a point when it should flow you'll get smashed.

Applying force is the wrong term. I allow my perfectly balanced polarity to extend into the other's body. Then I move as practiced in solo. Nothing is different when you add another person. Just don't be afraid, don't get mentally stuck.

The worst mistake you could do is fixate on your body structure. I've tried training that way, and if you want internal, it's an absolute waste of time. 'The toes need to grab, the head needs to do this, etc...' All bullshit. It's external.

You can use external to some extent to vitalise yourself so in turn you can feel internal better. Yet under no circumstance should you confuse one for the other. If you do, you can train as long as you want without gaining skill.

'Don't put power into the form, let it arise naturally / on it's own'

[Giles]

True charlatanism.

I don't claim to be a fan of the whole 'package' (techniques, principles, created situations/set-ups, explanations, personality etc.) presented in the videos. But I find that here (albeit within the situation he sets up) he is pointing to and demonstrating a very important concept and skill. Namely: using one's own body to immediately (or in a very short space of time) transform the incoming energy/force. And indeed creating this transformation within one's own body as opposed to (primarily) moving it through the surrounding space to do it.
'Transformation' not in any esoteric woo-woo sense; I mean (as a very rough metaphor!) the way a trampoline, or a body of water, or a flag on a flagpole, immediately 'transforms' when subjected to incoming mass and force. This doesn't have to be in just the same way that Mizner demonstrates, or in the same kind of set-ups! But essentially, I would say yes. I've felt quite a few good or very good people who had some form of this 'immediate internal transformation' as soon as they were touched. From person to person it often felt (and looked) a bit different but the sense of something important and situation-changing happening within, say, a quarter of a second of initial contact was the common thread. And it was also the case that the more energy the 'attacker' puts in, the greater and the more 'subversive' the immediate change in the receiving body.

"4 ounces, 1000 pounds" is simply a metaphor for creating an effective result using an amount of physical effort that subjectively, to the recipient and in many cases also to the exponent (if not highly experienced), feels far too little, far too 'easy', to do the job. It feels highly counter-intuitive. But it does do the job if the body principles are applied correctly. Really no need to get hung op on specific numbers.

[Steve James]

Ok, try this. Get a scale; set the units to ounces; push down with precisely 4oz of force.

Can you tell how much force/jin/power is actually being used in the video?

[Bao]

Ok, try this. Get a scale; set the units to ounces; push down with precisely 4oz of force.

Can you tell how much force/jin/power is actually being used in the video?

Do you think that Adam is using the same amount of pressure all of the time in this video? In all of his videos?

Does he always using jin and never muscular strength?

[Steve James]

Do you think that Adam is using the same amount of pressure all of the time in this video? In all of his videos?

Does he always using jin and never muscular strength?

What I don't know if whether anyone is using four ounces to do anything. I can weigh four ounces, though. (Or, you can pick up two US quarters).

[GrahamB]

Only one thing for it now, after Jake Paul vs Ben Askren...

YouTube celebrity boxing match:

Mizner vs Xu xiaodong
Askren vs Mizner
Jake Paul vs Mizner

I’d watch all 3!

[everything]

True charlatanism.

I don't claim to be a fan of the whole 'package' (techniques, principles, created situations/set-ups, explanations, personality etc.) presented in the videos. But I find that here (albeit within the situation he sets up) he is pointing to and demonstrating a very important concept and skill. Namely: using one's own body to immediately (or in a very short space of time) transform the incoming energy/force. And indeed creating this transformation within one's own body as opposed to (primarily) moving it through the surrounding space to do it.
'Transformation' not in any esoteric woo-woo sense; I mean (as a very rough metaphor!) the way a trampoline, or a body of water, or a flag on a flagpole, immediately 'transforms' when subjected to incoming mass and force. This doesn't have to be in just the same way that Mizner demonstrates, or in the same kind of set-ups! But essentially, I would say yes. I've felt quite a few good or very good people who had some form of this 'immediate internal transformation' as soon as they were touched. From person to person it often felt (and looked) a bit different but the sense of something important and situation-changing happening within, say, a quarter of a second of initial contact was the common thread. And it was also the case that the more energy the 'attacker' puts in, the greater and the more 'subversive' the immediate change in the receiving body.

"4 ounces, 1000 pounds" is simply a metaphor for creating an effective result using an amount of physical effort that subjectively, to the recipient and in many cases also to the exponent (if not highly experienced), feels far too little, far too 'easy', to do the job. It feels highly counter-intuitive. But it does do the job if the body principles are applied correctly. Really no need to get hung op on specific numbers.

Everyone who posts here (I assume) can do this to some extent, just from some basic push hands or grappling. Don't think that is the "goods" or "it", but it's obviously good, maybe headed to "it".

[marvin8]

What do you feel is being shown ?

I believe this is Ian's explanation, [2:47] “You can just think centripetal connection. ...”

Ian Sinclair
Aug 26, 2017

Any demonstration of tai chi power requires something to push against. A deflated ball will not bounce. But the buoyancy is an important part of defensives structure. So, being bounced away is a sign of good defensive structure. You could neutralize the push easily, but doing so would put you in a more vulnerable shape.
The structure combined with awareness and sensitivity is a powerful advantage in a real fight.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAeZHk4t56I

[everything]

for those names, went to seminar with sam. he outweighs me by 100 lbs, so hard to know if he needed to use "it". spent similar time with cartmell. i outweigh him by maybe 30, but he controlled me even more easily, and let me use resistance (futile). all of that is similar to what Giles described, but to the nth degree. but it's easy to feel this at judo and jiu-jitsu, just not at that level. it's not "it" the way something like Ben Lo had, which isn't really comprehensible. the kind of thing Sun and others describe that 99% of people here don't even attempt to talk about. can't be explained by that description (that I agree with for what it is).

[windwalker]

In the clip Adam mentions the “Jin” penetrates, instead of acting on the surface
If it penetrates as he mentioned, what is it acting on ?

In most demos that people question, a commonality among them is that the body of the person being demoed on is effected as unit or is somehow collapsed why is this?

Reactions are disproportionate to what seems to be little to no effort used

What is being acted on ?

Adam using verbiage that aligns with his understanding provided by those he may have learned from.
Demos he uses and displays are quite common among those who have reached an understanding ability

The reactions among all such demos is quite remarkable in that they are very similar if not the same.


Regarding the proverbial 4 ounces

A number of different ways to look at this

One way, might be to understand and use the body as a conductor of “force “
Instead of the originator. The suggestion not to use more than 4oz of pressure, always followed by understanding that less and less should be used until none is needed.

On side note

Light can be classified as coherent and incoherent
Everyone is familiar with lasers, how they work and why

It’s still light

In speaking of “Jin” it would be helpful to make a distinction between “Jin” itself the methods or means by which it’s formed

The Chinese already do this categorizing it in many different types of “Jin”

[co-lee]

I don't say much on this board -- a handful of posts over the years. But I have known Adam and thought I'd share a few thoughts.

I studied with him for about 2 years when he first appeared on the scene. He stayed at my house several times for extended periods during which we spent hours a day training and I also went to a number of his workshops. We were both friends and comrades in the discipline. He was generous with his teaching.

He has real skill. And he taught me useful things that improved my skill. I really appreciate what he gave me: it helped fill in some missing pieces in my largely CMC-based practice. I continue to work with some of what he taught and incorporate it into my own practice.

But, I also met, hung out with, and pushed with a number of his senior students. And I watched his evolution as he started rolling out a franchise model and built more of a cult of personality around himself. I recall him talking about another student from whom he'd deliberately held back key details about what he was teaching. Not too surprising that he and that student had a falling out. Presumably he held back similar info from me, in the guise of "the system" and you need to learn these other things first. In recent times, I've been shocked to see some of the hateful and harmful stances he's been taking. Really quite different from the seemingly sweet and careful teacher I first met and put up. Oh well, I guess I mis-judged his character.

As far as the demos, he's a teacher who is more than willing to hurt his students. Getting injured is a norm. This may explain some of the tentative "attacks" you see students do in the demos. And he's very aware of the camera and what he perceives his market as wanting. At least when I initially spent time with him, he was real different than that one-on-one. Although the cameras got a lot more present over time.

I'm no great Tai Chi practitioner and certainly not a "fighter": just a guy who has practiced for a while. But, I appreciate the drills he gave me and the insights I've been able to develop from the bits he taught, in conjunction with what I got from my real teachers. However, I wouldn't suggest anyone else study with him or his senior students. Especially not if you're a woman. I think you can get similar teaching elsewhere without the baggage. And that's about all I've got to say.

[GrahamB]

"Especially not if you're a woman."

I think you need to elaborate on that. Why, exactly?

[Giles]

something important and situation-changing happening within, say, a quarter of a second of initial contact was the common thread. And it was also the case that the more energy the 'attacker' puts in, the greater and the more 'subversive' the immediate change in the receiving body.

Everyone who posts here (I assume) can do this to some extent, just from some basic push hands or grappling. Don't think that is the "goods" or "it", but it's obviously good, maybe headed to "it".

Well, yes and no.
I'm not saying "this is only to be found in tai chi, or the so-called IMAs, or whatever, it's a closed book to every other art..." But to clarify, what I am saying is that this ability is most definitely not just a question of quick or even-split second reaction/reflexes etc. The adaptive/transformative change (oh dear, sounds hippy-dippy again, but I'm trying to use the best words) definitely occurs in the core of the force recipient, as part of the sky-earth alignment and connection. The recipient's body is already organized into a state where they no longer have to be 'quick', just like a trampoline or water doesn't have to be 'quick'. I am not high level (maybe medium level on a good day with a following wind), but a few times over the years I've experienced how a person with significant mass and strength pushed against my body (not arm) when I wasn't intending to do anything in particular, I didn't move externally or tense up, and they flew backwards through the air. Er, wow, if only I could do that to order or more consistently.

I think this 'in-body transformation', irrespective of whether it's expressed in the torso or arms and irrespective of the vectors it produces, is indeed part of "the goods" - it's just a question of how refined, how powerful, how instantaneous, how consistent this skill is. If you have it, you can do all sorts of stuff with it, bring it into many techniques. And also the question of how available is it to the practitioner under pressure, when the opponent is really going for you, not conditioned by fear, respect or being willing to preserve your face.