Tai Chi push hands 3.0

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Tai Chi push hands 3.0

Postby GrahamB on Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:27 am

Rule change by Jet Li to make push hands an Olynmpic sport:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc-KcIBYnOk&t=982s

I could be wrong.
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Re: Tai Chi push hands 3.0

Postby dspyrido on Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:54 pm

Dear God please IOC don't allow this to become an olympic sport.
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Re: Tai Chi push hands 3.0

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:55 pm

I hope it does become an Olympic sport
At least then all the energy will move in one direction
The crap that is out there can’t become any worse
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Re: Tai Chi push hands 3.0

Postby dspyrido on Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:53 pm

Le Tai!

The world missed out on bringing back pankration or even a modern less dangerous version of pankration but times have moved on. If China brings in Le Tai with a few modified rules rather than this "push hands" (does anyone believe this is really competitive push hands???) then it will be a cultural shift that will bring back CMA.

But I doubt it will happen.
Last edited by dspyrido on Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tai Chi push hands 3.0

Postby AJG on Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:00 am

Looks like sumo wrestling for slim people
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Re: Tai Chi push hands 3.0

Postby robert on Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:13 am

Wushu is scheduled to be in the youth olympics in 2026 in Dakar. Luckily no mention of gong shou dao. IWUF does taolu and sanda, I'm not aware of any tuishou.
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Re: Tai Chi push hands 3.0

Postby windwalker on Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:34 am

GrahamB wrote:Rule change by Jet Li to make push hands an Olynmpic sport:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc-KcIBYnOk&t=982s

]


:)


Initially I must confess didn’t look at it, was kind of skeptical. Not a fan of push hands a training device, used as a competitive event

after watching the clip, can understand the sentiment and rationale behind the idea.
Back in the 70s, in the SF Bay Area

Teacher Brenden Lai, 7* mantis , along with a few other local teachers in the area came up with the idea of having people perform a set, for those claiming to be Chinese martial artist before competing in the combative events of the day. Proving that they actually practiced Chinese martial arts. Needless to say it never really worked out.

Something that drives a lot of this, the seemingly disconnect between what is practiced how it used, and what is used.
CMA in particular has had this conundrum, all the old stories of past masters, with no public films showing how they fought back in the day. Only stories.


Maybe this event will generate enough interest, develop some strong contenders who will later crossover into other sporting combative events with the skill sets developed from this one. Or it could be those with no linkage to Taiji practice train specifically for this event and start to win over those who claim to be Taiji practitioners.

Something that often happens in the push hand events of today.

Either way should be an interesting, unique venue

Wish it luck
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:55 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi push hands 3.0

Postby yeniseri on Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:27 am

I have always found the elements and criteris of Wu style tuishou/roushou to be an absolute standard on how 'push hands' should be expressed and practiced but that level and type of training is an outlier!
The current 'sumo style' expression of push hands (literally) just does not jive with actual knowledge of what tuishou is or how it should become. I realize that few have reached that pinnacle based on this current competition mentality showing terrible push hands. I realize it may be just me but it beez like dat



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Re: Tai Chi push hands 3.0

Postby windwalker on Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:47 am

The current 'sumo style' expression of push hands (literally) just does not jive with actual knowledge of what tuishou is or how it should become. I realize that few have reached that pinnacle based on this current competition mentality showing terrible push hands. I realize it may be just me but it beez like dat


Would not agree, although understand the sentiment.
What it turns into, is a problem for those who claim skills but don’t actually possess them, or are not at a level equal to those they interact with.
Different events have tried to address this through rule sets, which inevitably promotes a lot of bad habits, artificial constraints that take the practice further away from it's intended usage.

The real problem is with those claiming the skill sets themselves, as to whether they actually have them or can use them.
A training device turned into a competitive event.

Historically those claiming to represent Taiji entered into the same events as all other martial artist of their time.
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi push hands 3.0

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:48 am

I still don't believe that push hands should be a competition. Imo, that generally means that both practitioners do taiji, specifically the same style. There's no universal definition nor universal way of practicing it. Wu (Jianquan) style phs --after Ma's in Shanghai-- is complex, but so is the Wu style push hands at Practical tcc that comes from Hong Kong. Chen style push hands doesn't end up looking like what happens at a Chen style phs competition.

None of them are "wrong," but imo a competition will either combine all the methods or reduce them to a few. In practice, if I were competing, I'd focus solely on the competitive method. That might end up in creating a push hands sport, but then many people might not learn anything else.

If the goal of the contest is to knock someone down, off the platform, throw them, or hit them (with foot or fist), then they should start apart and be allowed to do what they want. (Within limits, of course). I mean, then anyone can play. Well, that might be a problem because how would anyone know they were doing taijii. Otoh, that's what would really happen in most conflicts anywhere. (Though, I suppose some muggers do tjq and do bjj. Hey, I bet "Taiji Mugger" would make a great Jackie Chan flick).
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Re: Tai Chi push hands 3.0

Postby windwalker on Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:46 am

yeniseri wrote:I have always found the elements and criteris of Wu style tuishou/roushou to be an absolute standard on how 'push hands' should be expressed and practiced but that level and type of training is an outlier!
The current 'sumo style' expression of push hands (literally) just does not jive with actual knowledge of what tuishou is or how it should become. I realize that few have reached that pinnacle based on this current competition mentality showing terrible push hands. I realize it may be just me but it beez like dat





Some history

As the famous saying goes “Of Luchan’s students, Wanchun (萬春) got his hard fajin, Lingshan (凌山) was adapt as throwing, and Quanyou (全佑) was skilled at neutralization.” So these were his three best students (besides his sons of course). Wangchun, Lingshan, and Quanyou were Manchurian guards working at Prince Duan’s palace.

Wangchun and Lingshan had no desciples, Quanyou today is respected as founder of Wu Style Taijiquan. According to family lore within Taiji circles, there were actually two other Manchurian students who obtained Taijiquan skill before these three, but they both perished during the invasion of Eight-Nation Alliance.


Image

It is during this time Shuaijiao reached its zenith, as Manchurian, Mongolian, and Han styles merged into a much larger, more detailed skill. The Manchu emperor has his own wrestling team of around 438 people, divided into two camps.

Throughout the year the camps competed with each other, had frequent exhibitions, traveled with emperor during hunts, and most importantly, faced off against the Mongolian king’s wrestlers in annual contest. Membership and promotion in the team depended entirely on one’s performance in all these events.


The 438 of professional wrestlers at Shan Pu Ying (善扑营) belong to but one of the three capitol city garrisons. The one where Yang Luchan, Liu Zhijun, and Song Mailun taught at – Shen Ji Ying, had over 2,000 instructors/weapons experts who led the training of 30,000 strong palace guards.

That plus the battle-hardened agents of Big Ten security companies (Biaoju), members of Big Six martial arts of the north, and all the people who flock to the city to make a name for themselves


https://internalmartialart.wordpress.com/?wref=bif

Changes that might have helped to shape some of the views of modern day push hands

Unlike the Manchurian patrons during an earlier age, these wealthy merchants and politicians tend to be of middle age, otherwise inactive, used to life of luxury and comfort. They tend to be very overweight, and quite a few indulged in opium. They were not martial art material to say the least. During push hands, they have poor awareness of their own center, and tend to lean forward too much during advances.

It was young Master Wang’s job to prevent them from falling in such circumstances. Similarly, he need to very precise in his own attacks so these clients won’t get thrown down to the ground.

Master Wang looked to this not as a drudgery, but an opportunity to refine his skill: here has this heavy weight he needs to carefully control at all times, he has to follow the opponent, make him think he’s doing well, he needs to do his own skill,
but beat the opponent without hurting him or cause any discomfort.


https://internalmartialart.wordpress.com/?wref=bif
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
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