Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Bhassler on Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:20 am

Wudang/Practical TCC is good stuff. From my understanding they start with basic external form and body mechanics and add the neigong once the student has proven to be serious and not an asshole (by their reckoning). Either way, their internal mechanics are, you know, internal, so you won't see them, but they can be felt. I don't really "get" the method in terms of understanding how it works, but I crossed hands with a practitioner once who made a believer out of me. I reckon it's one of the few methods that consistently produces results in their students. They also have a well rounded curriculum in terms of having usable content relative to sportive and well as non-sportive apps and actual weapon work.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby dspyrido on Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:44 pm

Trick wrote:here i am .........no im not going to mention chakras.......but mentioning fighting and taiji in same sentence and implying the two are synonymous is not right since fighting implies an conflict and even aggression which Taiji is not about 8-)


Would it make any difference if it was called taichi/taiji quan instead of the universal default of taichi? Is the fist part related to some other form of ... fisting? :-\

I don't mind people talking about taichi neigong but tcc has always been presented as to how it applies to fighting. Let's face it if it was just neigong then why have demonstrations of bouncy bouncy students throwing pretend punches? Why even categorise it as a martial art?
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:22 pm

CTH was a fighter as were his students in the 60’s
There were two here in Australia that I knew of
Rocky Kwong in Melbourne
Colin Chau in Sydney
I trained with Colin in a strange manner
He got me to come and work with him at the banana markets
He thought me lifting a couple of thousand boxes of bananas a day would do me some good
I between the work he would take me into the ripening rooms and teach me
Internal noi hung mixed with hard practical fighting
He wasn’t much on pulling punches so I took to carrying a mouth guard in my pocket
The last I heard of Colin he was approached by a gang of young Chinese with knives who wanted his wallet
He said please don’t embarrass me in public can we do it in the alley
They did
Colin walked down the alley and said
If you want my wallet bad enough come and get it
They declined and left
Colin was in his late 70’s at the time
CTH teachings still there
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby dspyrido on Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:30 pm

windwalker wrote:Looks like you'r not going to answer my question , presenting one of your own.

As to what I think, I've presented examples of those in matches that show unique movement and clear strategies Indicative of their stylistic influences

And a question based on your comment referring to those who might not think of the OP's clip as taiji

Don't have a problem with the clip it follows their training, and outlook of taiji.

My point is that in looking at the clip, if one knew nothing about taiji,
how would one know which person was the taiji practitioner.


You presented a sanda guy doing sanda. Where's the tc?

As for the original clip - I never said anything about how "tai chi" they are. I said I like that they hit pads and have a bit more of a practical mindset (than the nonsense we seem to be getting a lot of).

How would one (as we are now spreaking in 3rd person) who does tc recognise tc as one would also have to consider the different forms of tc which have different approaches & strategies.

E.g chen tc focuses more on wide horse stands that lends itself to cutting throws whereas wu hao relies on a more upright structure that lures the opponent into qinna breaks while OTOH sun tcc has a far greater influence of xy and uses a lot more opening by sticking & striking etc etc

Does one think they are all the same and will look the same regardless since they all fall under the tcc banner?
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby windwalker on Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:53 pm

dspyrido wrote:

Queue now the rsf comments of this not being real tc because of not being able to manipulate chakras, not mentioning fascia or the greatest sin - not making people bounce around like possessed lunatics. Plus I didn't see anyone wearing silk pjs so it's definitely not tc or internal.


What you wrote
Always interesting.



Why not approach it from a different way.
In your opinion what makes this any different from anything else ?

In movement, or application can you point to any defining characteristics or strategies
unique to what is called Taiji?


My question, with “examples” of what I look for

What makes the training shown by the OP different enough that people would understand what they’re seeing is Taiji with out being told it was.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Fubo on Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:30 pm

dspyrido wrote:


True! It's been decades since the term NHB was thrown around but even the early UFC's had a rule around shoes & not permitting kicks. I guess since they named it MMA so I just thought it was crappy footage. We had colour in the 90s/2000s but I guess we were still mostly on video tape.


That's true about the earlier UFCs. I believe Neil, being one of Dan Doherty's guys, was based out of the UK, and perhaps the NHB events there had different rules to even the early UFC fights, though I don't know for sure.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Trick on Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:43 am

dspyrido wrote:
Trick wrote:here i am .........no im not going to mention chakras.......but mentioning fighting and taiji in same sentence and implying the two are synonymous is not right since fighting implies an conflict and even aggression which Taiji is not about 8-)


Would it make any difference if it was called taichi/taiji quan instead of the universal default of taichi? Is the fist part related to some other form of ... fisting? :-\

I don't mind people talking about taichi neigong but tcc has always been presented as to how it applies to fighting. Let's face it if it was just neigong then why have demonstrations of bouncy bouncy students throwing pretend punches? Why even categorise it as a martial art?

No no, your misinterpret into the usual Qi gong stuff.
The “quan” in TJQ is the “life giving fist(boxing)”, Heading into an conflict zone(ring/cage/mat) one has settled the mind of taking pleasure of an conflict(wanting to fight) one has chosen the opposite fist wich is not in accordance with the grand ultimate state of the taijitu.
The greatest Qigong is being in harmony with ones surroundings, fightimg it there will be stagnation and great achievement can’t come forth... :)
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Bao on Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:46 am

“Quan” is a collective term on boxing systems/martial arts.

The meaning of the Taijitu is not a state of harmony. You’ve got that wrong.

Tai Chi Chuan is not Qigong.

There’s no definition on Qigong that says that it’s about being in harmony with ones surroundings. The main idea is just to use movement to move around “qi” or to stimulate qi on different places of the body.

However, I do agree that Tai Chuan is not about fighting. The mindset is a complete rejection of aggression or fear and doesn’t look as an opponent as a threat. Instead the correct way is to deal with an opponent clinically without feelings as the opponent was just an object in motion.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Giles on Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:13 am

Ah, well, so much for the Tai Chi Classics. Time to bin them, I guess... ;)
As far as I remember, they talk about achieving certain states of body, certain states of mind and, er, also using them to fight.

Bao: "The mindset is a complete rejection of aggression or fear and doesn’t look as an opponent as a threat. Instead the correct way is to deal with an opponent clinically without feelings as [if] the opponent was just an object in motion."
I would certainly agree with that as a higher (admirable) goal of Tai Chi Chuan and that this very much helps to avoid (unnecessary) conflict and be better all round. But the 'dealing with an opponent clinically' also means violence. Just not 'hot rage' or 'cold sadism'. In other words: fighting.

Some RSF people will probably be facepalming already. 'Are these guys even discussing this issue seriously...?' Regard it as harmless fun... :)
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Bao on Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:15 am

Giles wrote:Bao: "The mindset is a complete rejection of aggression or fear and doesn’t look as an opponent as a threat. Instead the correct way is to deal with an opponent clinically without feelings as [if] the opponent was just an object in motion."

I would certainly agree with that as a higher (admirable) goal of Tai Chi Chuan and that this very much helps to avoid (unnecessary) conflict and be better all round. But the 'dealing with an opponent clinically' also means violence. Just not 'hot rage' or 'cold sadism'. In other words: fighting.


Yes, physically and objectively it could be called violence and fighting. But you don't need to keep the violence and fight, or anger an hatred, inside your own heart. Fighting without fighting.

If you can do this, you won't tense up, get stuck or have tunnel vision. You will have more control over your actions and decisions, and react faster. And if you are not angry, you will probably not feel the need to unnecessarily hurt anyone.

Even if I have been in a few fights as young and stupid, I have never really hurt someone badly and I have never felt the need or urge to mess someone up. If you keep your head cool and think clear, you can avoid getting stuck in those anger modes. After all, it's better to avoid yourself and others to get into hospital, getting sued, have to go to court etc. ;)
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Steve James on Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:55 am

Hmm, I agree with Bao and GIles. There are lots of sayings like "the appearance is like a hawk circling" and/but/yet "the spirit is like a cat playing with a mouse." But, in the "fight": the hawk is not calm and the cat is not really playing.

However, when this comes to fighting for real (defined as the opponent is seriously trying to harm you), I take it to mean that I am as non-aggressive as possible until I am totally aggressive. More aggressive than the other guy, in fact. The opponent is supposed to be surprised. That is a classical "taichi" mentality. But, for me, using a baseball bat at that point would be fine. I'm no purist when it comes down to self-defense. ymmv.

The real-life situation where it's harder for this to work is in the ring. See, then I know what the other guy wants to do, and he knows the same. So, someone can look as calm or expressionless as they want. He might be smiling like Masvidal. :)
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:11 am

The main thing I have seen in real confrontations is it either goes yin or yang
Yin adrenalin dump or over reaction
What tai chi attitude is about is relaxation in the face of danger
This does not always cross over to the ring situation
Tactics crowd expectations and rules all take a toll on that
I have seen a few examples lately of tai chi for sport
What I often wonder it how much tai chi training do they do as opposed to other types
If they do more western boxing that will show through
More bjj that's what they will go to
When I had a large school I had one student who had a professional karate fighting background
He approached me to let him fight for me in competitions
My answer was when you have more tai chi than karate
When he reached that point he did not want to fight
At one stage I was working with two well known professional wrestlers
A internationally well known tai chi teacher was going to get a pushing hands tournament going
I was seen down Chinstown with the wrestlers
Some of his students came to watch my classes and asked me what I was doing with the wrestlers
I told them I was training them for his pushing tournament
The tournament was called off
Sportsmen are sportsmen the average tai chi man training for reality is still an casual who tai chi might work for in a self defence situation
Even if it does not it will help him to surpass the effects of the incident
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Trick on Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:19 am

Giles wrote:Ah, well, so much for the Tai Chi Classics. Time to bin them, I guess... ;)
As far as I remember, they talk about achieving certain states of body, certain states of mind and, er, also using them to fight.

Bao: "The mindset is a complete rejection of aggression or fear and doesn’t look as an opponent as a threat. Instead the correct way is to deal with an opponent clinically without feelings as [if] the opponent was just an object in motion."
I would certainly agree with that as a higher (admirable) goal of Tai Chi Chuan and that this very much helps to avoid (unnecessary) conflict and be better all round. But the 'dealing with an opponent clinically' also means violence. Just not 'hot rage' or 'cold sadism'. In other words: fighting.

Some RSF people will probably be facepalming already. 'Are these guys even discussing this issue seriously...?' Regard it as harmless fun... :)
Yes Bao and you have some wrongs here. If mastery of Taijiquan has been achieved a fight is not a fight, and opponent is not an opponent.....and he/she is not an mere object either....You merge, and you lead them from their astray path of conflict seeking to the path of mutual understanding..this is the admirable goal of the Quan of Taiji....
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby dspyrido on Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:41 am

Giles wrote:Ah, well, so much for the Tai Chi Classics. Time to bin them, I guess... ;)
As far as I remember, they talk about achieving certain states of body, certain states of mind and, er, also using them to fight.

...

Some RSF people will probably be facepalming already. 'Are these guys even discussing this issue seriously...?' Regard it as harmless fun... :)


Ok I'll facepalm.

TC has been banded about as the "grand ultimate" ... of fighting! Not the grand ultimate of altered states or philosophy warriors.

When the term "grand ultimate" was stated was this just straight out deception marketing i.e. the pre 1940s equivalent of youtube masters getting stooges to bounce around for the camera?

I will just speak from my experience but happy to be corrected here. The only true "masters" I have met are not soft philosophy warriors who did a slow form, calligraphy & playful push hands with enamored students. They really trained to a level I would describe as true yin/yang. They knew extreme soft (stillness so speak to tune into extremely small efficient moves) & extreme motion (explosive motion via countless repetitions) and how to combine them in a handbook of tactics that are best described as ... real nasty moves.

As for mindset - there are those who can fight & are cool characters. Look at them in the UFC. Some of them do it right. They get in smash each other up and then just get up and hug. Pretty cool characters for people who just took a belting.

Trick wrote:Yes Bao and you have some wrongs here. If mastery of Taijiquan has been achieved a fight is not a fight, and opponent is not an opponent.....and he/she is not an mere object either....You merge, and you lead them from their astray path of conflict seeking to the path of mutual understanding..this is the admirable goal of the Quan of Taiji....


So TC is the art of talking an opponent out of a fight? Or the art of not being at the wrong place at the wrong time? The art that somehow turns a person into a nobleman even when fist meets face? Care to explain which form teaches that?

Anyway I wish you all the best luck with making your "opponent not an opponent" next time you get surrounded by a bunch of idiots itching for some trouble.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby dspyrido on Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:59 am

windwalker wrote:My question, with “examples” of what I look for

What makes the training shown by the OP different enough that people would understand what they’re seeing is Taiji with out being told it was.


But we where told it was TC. It's in the title. After that it's open to interpretation as to whether it's good TC or not but I am happy to leave it to you guys to cue the discussions around heritage, shenfa, dantien, fascia etc etc.

All I like is that they are a bit more practical in their mindset & are not assuming that doing a slow form & light repetitive handplay somehow transforms a person into a supreme ultimate warrior.

But let's put another question forward - What does real tai chi look like in a fight? What sort of real training would turn tai chi into something that is practical for a fight? Now that's an exciting topic to get into.
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