Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby dspyrido on Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:37 pm

nicklinjm wrote:Surprised Erle Montaigue's 'interviews' with his supposed teacher Chang Yiu-chun are still being brought up so many years later.

Basically the conclusion from multiple discussions online (e.g. see here: http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/431/2975.html?1150683459) has been that Chang Yiu-chun either didn't exist or if he did he never studied from Yang Shaohou. No name similar to Chang's appears in the list of YSH's known disciples, and the taiji practiced and taught by Erle does not resemble that taught by actual students / disciples of YSH, such as Zhang Huchen or Gu Luping.

Erle's material seems to have been based on Chen Panling's form with a lot of the other material basically just made up.

As for Old Yang, there are the branches coming from YSH I mentioned above, also people coming from Yang Banhou's disciples in his hometown (Li Wancheng, Bai Zhongxin) who still practice the pre-YCF versions of the system.


This stuff is hilarious! Thanking you!

I know the tc world divides & just keeps on dividing so it's so fragmented it ends up in a few big brands and many division's of 1 or 0 but in the end even the link you posted is just as supportive as it is damning.

I know we'll never really know the real history. I also know I know very little when compared to the historians of IMA. Frankly the back stories don't interest me like the question "how does this work?"

I keep seeing snippets of fighty TC & many many softy TC. The fighty ones just seem to deliver more goods than the softies. In the end mad or not Erle's stuff looks more real to me than say Cheng Man Ching.

But I'm happy to be shown the light of really great unscripted softy TC applied even semi realistically. Then any commentary on how it's trained would be great. Until then the old school power method seems to be the only way.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:01 pm

Our school in Penang CMC has a proud fighting both real and tournament
If you think Erles stuff looks real I will have to re think any comments you make
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:03 pm

nicklinjm wrote:Surprised Erle Montaigue's 'interviews' with his supposed teacher Chang Yiu-chun are still being brought up so many years later.

Basically the conclusion from multiple discussions online (e.g. see here: http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/431/2975.html?1150683459) has been that Chang Yiu-chun either didn't exist or if he did he never studied from Yang Shaohou. No name similar to Chang's appears in the list of YSH's known disciples, and the taiji practiced and taught by Erle does not resemble that taught by actual students / disciples of YSH, such as Zhang Huchen or Gu Luping.

Erle's material seems to have been based on Chen Panling's form with a lot of the other material basically just made up.

As for Old Yang, there are the branches coming from YSH I mentioned above, also people coming from Yang Banhou's disciples in his hometown (Li Wancheng, Bai Zhongxin) who still practice the pre-YCF versions of the system.



Not far off the truth there Nick
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby dspyrido on Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:27 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Our school in Penang CMC has a proud fighting both real and tournament
If you think Erles stuff looks real I will have to re think any comments you make


Nah you're on the right track. My comments are useless but heck I'm happy to be shown the light.

I actually don't really think too much about Erle other than he was that hairy guy in the 90s who did TC & ...

OMG ... he hit pads!

I never paid attention to anything else like forms, shenfa or push hands that you guys get excited by. Also he had something going for dim mak that looked weighty but I couldn't take seriously.

Post a stream of you guys or related schools doing fighty TC stuff. In the background I'll do a bit of poking around for CMC Penang.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 01, 2021 1:47 am

Unfortunately there were no phones back then with cameras
However there is film of Dan Dockerty winning the same tournament that wang Ken Sui also one
Many members of the Malaysian Thai Keik assn won the same tournament
I fought in the 1975 Full contact tang shou Tao tournament
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Bao on Sat May 01, 2021 4:38 am

wayne hansen wrote:However there is film of Dan Dockerty winning the same tournament that wang Ken Sui also one


Oh, you mean the flying kick... Maybe not what many would suspect that a “tai chi guy” would use. Overall he showed excellent understanding of distance and timing.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby wayne hansen on Sat May 01, 2021 11:22 am

I am not using Dan as an example although I also have roots back to Chen Tin Hung
I only watched the film once so I forget the flying side kick
It was the premier tournament for Kung fu at the time
Muay Thai and Silat guys as well as Shaolin guys would always come t o our school in Penang to test themselves out at the time
Most of Yeap Sui Tings students had hard style skills due to the fact they had challenged Yeap and lost in no holds barred fights
However most only trained in his method after converting
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby GrahamB on Sat May 01, 2021 11:34 am

I've only seen this tiny snippet, but it looks like the flying side kick is done by the other guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DL4kaox2ZY
I could be wrong.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby cloudz on Fri May 07, 2021 8:55 am

great guy
top teacher, fabulous technician and wide ranging knowledge.
feel lucky that he lives in my hood
been doing the systems 'neigong' with him, covid permitting!
in some quarters it's known as an iron shirt qigong set. but whatevs.

don't recall having seen that fight footage.
he's an absolute beast to push with.

nuff said :)
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby cloudz on Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:21 pm

GrahamB wrote:Well, he says "it won't look like a hand form". And he's right. You have to say though, there is some consistency between the methods he's teaching to the young lady and the methods he's using in the ring. It can't be denied.

But also, modern professional MMA fighters by and large have not chosen to use these method and focussed on other things instead.

I'm less interested in the question of "is this tai chi?" (because that seems undefinable in a public forum) and more interested in "is this a good representation of a particular style?". And on that front I think it is what it says it is.



dude, I like this
it's a good and fair comment.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby cloudz on Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:48 pm

Bao wrote:
AJG wrote:I looked at both clips and can't see what the tai chi has added in terms of value.

Tai chi experts - keen to hear your views


I can’t speak of all “Wudang Practical Tai Chi Chuan”, but I know some people there, and from all of what I have watched from their practicing methods is that they work with applications and drills in a technical manner without building any real foundation as rooting, whole body movement or Dantian coordination. They go straight into that practical mode as if their art was an external style. So they need to use external strength to make anything work.



don't tar everyone with the same brush.

I've experienced guys with great rooting. including those similar size and smaller.
I'd be amazed if you could get Neil off his feet for even a split second bro..
maybe once in a hundred goes, if you're lucky.

you know, taking aside the exceptions, you may have a valid observation in regards external - and I use that in no derogatory way - like some may do here.
certainly the method and teaching comes across and is taught that way, I think, for fair and valid reason. it's certainly a system that will take you from external towards "internal" (how I think you are using the term). Depending.

however, when you say dan tien - is that what internal means. is rooting what internal means. is whole body movement what internal means.
depends what you really mean by dan tien. but the others, not so sure.

the way you have worded things, i don't find much credence to what you mean by using external strength to make things work. you mean muscle power..
well, everyone uses muscle power. it's how.

there are definitely people in this system who have refined themselves to a high level of function. it may be you just haven't met them.
but whatever - you don't know what you don't know.

coming back to dan tien.

what yang or wu style lines really focus on dan tien training anyway. sure moving from the centre may be talked about.
but there's no real focus or training as per chen styles or some other systems

is dan tien a bunch of muscles that go by other names to you or is it something else. maybe both.
either way and suffice to say- I don't think what you described is internal per se. and i do find use for the term personally.

the way you describe it and what you allude it to, is to me skill and refinement. people in this system would get plenty of that with time and experience - where it matters.
going against each other and others over and over, and over.

not to mention the neigong and hand form training, application..

these things will develop rooting, whole body movement and co-ordination.
and rather than the 'dantien'
there are exercises in the neigong that work 'the waist';whole lower torso area - in relation (exclusion) to the hips - like no other set I've come across.
'the waist' - perhaps the true essence of tai chi of a certain ilk. rather than simply 'the dan tien'. perhaps a smaller part or cog in that larger area of the body.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Tom on Wed Jun 09, 2021 12:51 pm

GrahamB wrote:I've only seen this tiny snippet, but it looks like the flying side kick is done by the other guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DL4kaox2ZY


Yes. And Dan called his knock-out strike a "Rolling Thunder Punch" (sounded like the name of a technique, but I don't know Cheng Tin Hung's taijiquan).
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby cloudz on Wed Jun 09, 2021 1:18 pm

Correct Tom, it is a striking/ punching technique in this system.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Bao on Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:04 pm

cloudz wrote:don't tar everyone with the same brush.


Actually I didn’t. I started with saying: “ I can’t speak of all “Wudang Practical Tai Chi Chuan”, but I know some people there...”

however, when you say dan tien - is that what internal means. is rooting what internal means. is whole body movement what internal means.
depends what you really mean by dan tien. but the others, not so sure.

the way you have worded things, i don't find much credence to what you mean by using external strength to make things work. you mean muscle power..
well, everyone uses muscle power. it's how.


By using the Dantian I mean that your body moves from a center.

“Using external strength” means “Li”, or exerting muscle force as opposed to refined jin which in Tai Chi means that you relax the muscles while moving and using your body and limbs. This means that you use the functionality of the muscles that, for example, drives the arm forward or up, but you don’t tense up the muscles. Mostly, tensions and tensing up the body unnecessarily is a reflex, something most people do automatically. You need to practice in a way that you re-program your body use if you are going to understand how to use “Jin“, or a more efficient use of the body. If you practice “techniques” in an external manner without deliberately minding your use of your balance, structure and body tension, you will never learn how to develop jin.

However, there are always levels between using the body in different ways. Using common strength in a common way doesn’t always mean unrefined or clumsy. You can also use common strength or “li” together with good use of leverage and timing. This way even ”li” can be used in a refined manner that becomes effortless.


coming back to dan tien.
...I don't think what you described is internal per se. and i do find use for the term personally.

the way you describe it and what you allude it to, is to me skill and refinement.


I don’t believe that even 0.001 percent of Tai Chi practitioners uses the term dantian in an “internal” way.

Skill and refinement comes in many different shapes and forms.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:33 pm

Here's one among many examples of training methods taught and practiced in the older pre-1930 versions of Yang Style Tai-Chi Chuan, which are generally not a part of the curriculum in the subsequent YCF versions of Yang Style.

How many of you can perform all of these exercises in the same way they are demonstrated on this video?

https://youtu.be/P0DLuiBBkNs
Last edited by Doc Stier on Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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