Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Daniel-san on Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:28 am

wayne hansen wrote:Bruce Lee,s Shaolin teacher came to Australia
I can't remember his name but he taught at the YMCA in HK
He was asked how many men he could beat at one time
30
30?
Yes 30 if they are 5 year old children
If it's Muhammad Ali that's a little bit harder


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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby dspyrido on Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:01 pm

Trick wrote:The character of “Wu” in Wushu and Wude holds the inner meaning of non conflict and peace. To seek and maintain the status of conflict is not the way of CMA, Taijiquan is called the great ultimate cause it embodies this noble cause the most ....... :D


Trick wrote:However speaking about speaking, true mastery of the way allow ones spoken words to work favorable, actually it’s not so much the words but the voice that do the work. Also at that level the language of ones body(body language) and mental outlook make aggressors think twice


A bit like these guys?





Oh I get it. They did not learn true Tai Chi which teaches their noble spirit & body language to avoid being stupid enough to get in a cage without any real fight experience.

Then again I'm pretty sure most people who do TC will not agree with you because you can learn that in 10 seconds & not 10 years of forms, push hands etc. etc.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby dspyrido on Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:35 pm

windwalker wrote:The point of the clips I posted was to show unique observable differences in style and approach that need no explanation as to what is being done or used.


Observable is the point. Put these guys in silk pjs & call it internal power - would they look so different to original videos?



Then again compare your videos to this bjj guy and for experienced people subtle differences will be seen.

But instead of looking at specific hand picked moves let's take a look at a full fight from Han.



How many different Tai Chi & CMA moves is he exhibiting when compared to the following handpicked video of a great MT guy?



Are they truly different?

windwalker wrote:“ what does real taiji look like in a fight“.

For me a strange question, often asked by those who practice taiji. Why or how could it be they don’t know.

“Any style/method “ should look pretty much the same way as it’s practiced . Same question, not only asked about taiji but CMA in General.

Real training, functional

If one adheres strictly to the standards set forth by past masters and some present day ones. It’s quite difficult maybe most people would not be able to get it.


Does that mean that TC should be fought slowly? How should it be trained to be real & functional?

windwalker wrote:It is said that YLC sons ran away or tried to kill themselves because the training was so difficult.
Lots of historical accounts concerning the severity of taiji training.

In order to understand the practicality of Taiji. Like anything else it’s through intended usage “fighting “ one has to
use it as trained exploring its functionality, correcting misunderstandings or developing deeper understanding.


This raises the interesting follow up question:

What exactly was YLC's difficult training of his sons?

The objective being to get to the essence of what real training is supposed to look like.

To emphasize the most important question:

How should TC be trained to be real & functional?
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby windwalker on Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:05 pm

dspyrido wrote:This raises the interesting follow up question,

What exactly was YLC's difficult training of his sons?

The objective being to get to the essence of what real training is supposed to look like.

To emphasize the most important question:

How should TC be trained to be real & functional?



Some of the training historically that made it very difficult, not many do in this day and age
One of the stories from the Ban Hao line, about training under a table...


In looking at the demo, one can view it as a skill, which if one can not understand the purpose,
it just remains something interesting to watch. Quite difficult to do.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iwT4VIcj-0


'Yang Banhou" He was the senior son of Yang Luchan to survive to adulthood. Like his father, he was retained as a martial arts instructor by the Chinese Imperial family.[2][3] He eventually became the formal teacher of Wu Ch'uan-yu (Wu Quanyou), a Manchu Banner cavalry officer of the Palace Battalion.[2] Wu Ch'uan-yu's son, Wu Chien-ch'uan (Wu Jianquan), also a Banner officer, became known as the co-founder (along with his father) of the Wu-style t'ai chi ch'uan.[3] Yang Pan-hou's younger brother Yang Chien-hou was a well known teacher of Yang-style t'ai chi ch'uan as well.[2] Yang Pan-hou's son, Yang Shao-p'eng (1875-1938) was also a t'ai chi teacher.[3]

Yang Banhou taught Wang Jiao-Yu his father's Guang Ping Yang t'ai chi ch'uan form, Wang Jiao-Yu taught Kuo Lien Ying this original Yang style form[citation needed].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Pan-hou

The skill sets taught back then a different time, when things were tested "publicly"
Some groups still train the skill sets.



We can tell whatever Yang Luchan taught, he taught everyone the same. Banhou’s skill and training is no different from what is taught in Quan You’s lineage, or different from those of Yongnian students Yang Luchan taught before coming to Beijing. In fact, of the six big styles of Taijiquan today, all five that shared common ancestor in Yang Luchan look more or less the same, with only Chen Style looking very different.


The 438 of professional wrestlers at Shan Pu Ying (善扑营) belong to but one of the three capitol city garrisons. The one where Yang Luchan, Liu Zhijun, and Song Mailun taught at – Shen Ji Ying, had over 2,000 instructors/weapons experts who led the training of 30,000 strong palace guards.

That plus the battle-hardened agents of Big Ten security companies (Biaoju), members of Big Six martial arts of the north, and all the people who flock to the city to make a name for themselves, Beijing during Qing Dynasty represented the peak of development and growth of traditional martial art.

https://internalmartialart.wordpress.com/?wref=bif

The history, quite interesting for all CMA styles.
The training that makes/made/ them effective like any high-level training
sought and trained by relatively few..
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:16 am

Not overly impressed with the under the table thing
The flow was lacking causing a double weighting thing
As I heard it it was Wu Tu Nan who went from Wu to Yang and had to do the table thing
I was told it was one of those higher tables they have in the entrance ways
A mate of mine was training in Taiwan and they had long planks they could lower by pulleys for walking practice
I know people like Pui Chan who can do snake creeps down with the front foot off the ground
This comes from plumb blossom training
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Bao on Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:35 am

What exactly was YLC's difficult training of his sons?
The objective being to get to the essence of what real training is supposed to look like.


From https://sifuondemand.com/node/730

“An interview from China Wushu Magazine from the mid seventies with Chang Yiu-Chun a student of Yang Shou-Hou.“

“A. My teacher was Yeung (Yang) Shou-hu the grandson of the founder of the Yeung (Yang) style, Yeung Lu-sum. (Yang Lu-Ch'an). I was with Yeung from 1911 until his death in 1930.

Q. Many people have commented upon the sometimes brutal nature of Yeung Shou-hu's teaching methods.

A. Yes, quite often we would finish a training period with blood on our vests and many bruises. Sometimes a bone would be broken. Yeung did not have many students.

....

A. We do the shan-shou in three ways. The first way is to learn the movements of attack and defence. The second way is to do these movements faster and with much more power, this is where we get some bruises. The third way is when we try to strike each other for real and try to get each other off balance by doing the movements in the wrong sequence.“



To emphasize the most important question:

How should TC be trained to be real & functional?


What would you suggest?
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby windwalker on Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:56 am

wayne hansen wrote:Not overly impressed with the under the table thing
The flow was lacking causing a double weighting thing
As I heard it it was Wu Tu Nan who went from Wu to Yang and had to do the table thing
I was told it was one of those higher tables they have in the entrance ways
A mate of mine was training in Taiwan and they had long planks they could lower by pulleys for walking practice
I know people like Pui Chan who can do snake creeps down with the front foot off the ground
This comes from plumb blossom training



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn6S55I_5pA

Teacher Henry Wang, at 70.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5OtBp73-b8
More of the same type of practice


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o21lg4PG3jM

My teacher in his 60s.

Not everyone in the group went through this type of practice, was told it took about three years just to condition the lower body. Not easy to do while meeting the requirements.

Often in meeting people they seem to feel what they see it’s rather simple and easy to do.
I would ask them to do a simple squatting movement, keeping their back straight and plumb, shoulders aligned with the hips, heels flat on the floor, as they squat. Unless one is trained most would not be able to do it to the standard. Example of something that seems easy to do but is not.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:55 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby robert on Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:36 am

From Chen Yanlin's taijiquan manual -

As for the Yang Style Taiji boxing set, people usually only know of one version of the set and are not aware that there are three versions: high, middle, and low. In the beginning, practice the high version, then practice the middle version (also known as the “four levels” set, meaning the eyes are level, the hands are level, the feet are level, and the crotch is level), then practice the low version. Within the three heights of the set, it also divides into large, medium, and small:




This isn't low form, but notice how relaxed and comfortable James Fu is in snake creeps down and that he can still use his yao in a low posture ...

The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:33 pm

My Wu style teacher He Tow Tan
At 76 he could 20 one legged squats on right then on left
Smiling all the time
He is also the only person who I have seen who could do needle at sea with his back dead straight and touch his fingers to the floor
He was the most relaxed practitioner I have seen
He did a version of springy leg where the leg was like a spring
However he had been training 70 years at that time so he should have achieved some skill
Ps he was not my best teacher
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby dspyrido on Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:31 pm

windwalker wrote:Some of the training historically that made it very difficult, not many do in this day and age
One of the stories from the Ban Hao line, about training under a table...

In looking at the demo, one can view it as a skill, which if one can not understand the purpose,
it just remains something interesting to watch. Quite difficult to do.


Yes it is difficult & I can see the purpose of its use that could include building kicking power, leg deflection support, handling a wrestling attack like a single or double leg etc.

The rest of your post though simply says the usual anecdotal histories that don't answer - how did they train?

Are you saying that his sons ran away because he asked them to do a lot of squats and leg stretches? What is missing?
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby dspyrido on Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:54 pm

Bao wrote:
What exactly was YLC's difficult training of his sons?
The objective being to get to the essence of what real training is supposed to look like.


From https://sifuondemand.com/node/730

“An interview from China Wushu Magazine from the mid seventies with Chang Yiu-Chun a student of Yang Shou-Hou.“

“A. My teacher was Yeung (Yang) Shou-hu the grandson of the founder of the Yeung (Yang) style, Yeung Lu-sum. (Yang Lu-Ch'an). I was with Yeung from 1911 until his death in 1930.

Q. Many people have commented upon the sometimes brutal nature of Yeung Shou-hu's teaching methods.

A. Yes, quite often we would finish a training period with blood on our vests and many bruises. Sometimes a bone would be broken. Yeung did not have many students.

....

A. We do the shan-shou in three ways. The first way is to learn the movements of attack and defence. The second way is to do these movements faster and with much more power, this is where we get some bruises. The third way is when we try to strike each other for real and try to get each other off balance by doing the movements in the wrong sequence.“



To emphasize the most important question:

How should TC be trained to be real & functional?


What would you suggest?


Ah that makes more sense. Bloodied noses, damaged joints etc. Sounds like real training.

As for what I would suggest...

I have another anecdotal story that I am leaning to believing.

This fella is Hao Shaoru. He founded the Wu Hao TC.

Image

Not much to look at but there is a little snippets like:

https://www.chiflow.com/taichi_overview.htm

Li would later pass the system to Hao Weizhen. Hao was so powerful and legendary that many people referred to the style from then on as the Hao style.


How was Hao so powerful? Was it due to this & sensitivity training like many believe? Or is this super power contained the form?



Not according to the origin stories I have heard. Apparently this fella was a big strong man who used to lift many sacks in the family business. He continued this tradition into the later years and used to train with serious weight.

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=28204&sid=57a8a69d934cd2cf8560d1d9474a7adf

He countered the hard training with soft & combined it with dangerous striking qinna techniques. Not pushing people out of their stance or magic bouncing them around. With the right leverage & great strength he apparently could snap people apart.

At least this is more believable than saying it's all about qi, fascia, philosophy & relaxing.

Aside from all the softness training - I like the addition of much drilling technique while testing via sparring as well as rigorous whole body training including impact conditioning to build the bones. Yin-Yang.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby nicklinjm on Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:06 pm

Another part of the Wu (Hao) style power training which AFAIK has only been released on video publicly in the last few years is the pole shaking sets (dou da gan), for example see Zhai weichuan teaching it here:

https://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDIxNTg2MjAyMA==

Definitely think just doing the form won't get you very far martially, there is / was definitely a lot more to Hao style such as single movement fajin, rough sanshou practice, etc.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby AJG on Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:23 pm

dspyrido wrote:
Bao wrote:
What exactly was YLC's difficult training of his sons?
The objective being to get to the essence of what real training is supposed to look like.


From https://sifuondemand.com/node/730

“An interview from China Wushu Magazine from the mid seventies with Chang Yiu-Chun a student of Yang Shou-Hou.“

“A. My teacher was Yeung (Yang) Shou-hu the grandson of the founder of the Yeung (Yang) style, Yeung Lu-sum. (Yang Lu-Ch'an). I was with Yeung from 1911 until his death in 1930.

Q. Many people have commented upon the sometimes brutal nature of Yeung Shou-hu's teaching methods.

A. Yes, quite often we would finish a training period with blood on our vests and many bruises. Sometimes a bone would be broken. Yeung did not have many students.

....

A. We do the shan-shou in three ways. The first way is to learn the movements of attack and defence. The second way is to do these movements faster and with much more power, this is where we get some bruises. The third way is when we try to strike each other for real and try to get each other off balance by doing the movements in the wrong sequence.“



To emphasize the most important question:

How should TC be trained to be real & functional?


What would you suggest?


Ah that makes more sense. Bloodied noses, damaged joints etc. Sounds like real training.

As for what I would suggest...

I have another anecdotal story that I am leaning to believing.

This fella is Hao Shaoru. He founded the Wu Hao TC.

Image

Not much to look at but there is a little snippets like:

https://www.chiflow.com/taichi_overview.htm

Li would later pass the system to Hao Weizhen. Hao was so powerful and legendary that many people referred to the style from then on as the Hao style.


How was Hao so powerful? Was it due to this & sensitivity training like many believe? Or is this super power contained the form?



Not according to the origin stories I have heard. Apparently this fella was a big strong man who used to lift many sacks in the family business. He continued this tradition into the later years and used to train with serious weight.

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=28204&sid=57a8a69d934cd2cf8560d1d9474a7adf

He countered the hard training with soft & combined it with dangerous striking qinna techniques. Not pushing people out of their stance or magic bouncing them around. With the right leverage & great strength he apparently could snap people apart.

At least this is more believable than saying it's all about qi, fascia, philosophy & relaxing.

Aside from all the softness training - I like the addition of much drilling technique while testing via sparring as well as rigorous whole body training including impact conditioning to build the bones. Yin-Yang.



DS I liked the clip of the lady doing the form. But practicing form on its own isn't enough.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby dspyrido on Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:41 am

AJG wrote:DS I liked the clip of the lady doing the form. But practicing form on its own isn't enough.


Yep. Lifting 1000s of heavy bags over several years or being able to handle a 40 kg weighted pole I would say would do it. Then again it was probably chinese kg (jin) which would make it ~ 20kg. Even at this weight it's impressive.

Also just had a chance to properly read through this:

Bao wrote:From https://sifuondemand.com/node/730

“An interview from China Wushu Magazine from the mid seventies with Chang Yiu-Chun a student of Yang Shou-Hou.“



IDK of authenticity but it resonates. This is one awesome line when it comes to the views expressed around western & government sanctioned TC:

But if T'ai chi ch'uan changes any more and no more people begin to teach the original Yeung style then when we used to have a goat, now we have a duck.


And then this:

Q. What do you mean, surely it does not matter what style they do, it must all be Tai Chi Chuan?

A. I am not talking about the different styles, I am talking about the way in which people learn Tai Chi Chuan today. They think that if they learn some slow movements that they are doing Tai Chi Chuan. It takes much longer and much more dedication to learn Tai Chi Chuan properly.

Q. But surely, those who do not wish to do Tai Chi for fighting will only ever have to do the slow movements for good health.

A. Some of them will gain some small benefit to their health, I agree but much better health is available through doing Tai Chi in the correct way.


And finally this:

Q. But surely, many people must build up the body first of all before fighting and isn't this where the slower forms come in?

A. What people today do not realize is that back then when I was learning and it was still relatively unheard of even in China with only the main families like the Chen, the Wu and the Yang keeping it to themselves. It was only after Tai Chi became good for the health that many people started to learn. Most of us were already good at other styles of fighting. I knew Tiger Boxing and because of this and having to work very hard I and many others were already robust so we did not have to do the slow Tai Chi Chuan and even if we were not robust, there was no slow Tai Chi Chuan anyway!


Sounds pretty damning for what has been taught to most people in the world.

Anyone trained in the old style he speaks of? What were these secrets?

(Yeah I know it's unlikely to be answered but hey .... it doesn't hurt to ask)
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby nicklinjm on Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:33 am

Surprised Erle Montaigue's 'interviews' with his supposed teacher Chang Yiu-chun are still being brought up so many years later.

Basically the conclusion from multiple discussions online (e.g. see here: http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/431/2975.html?1150683459) has been that Chang Yiu-chun either didn't exist or if he did he never studied from Yang Shaohou. No name similar to Chang's appears in the list of YSH's known disciples, and the taiji practiced and taught by Erle does not resemble that taught by actual students / disciples of YSH, such as Zhang Huchen or Gu Luping.

Erle's material seems to have been based on Chen Panling's form with a lot of the other material basically just made up.

As for Old Yang, there are the branches coming from YSH I mentioned above, also people coming from Yang Banhou's disciples in his hometown (Li Wancheng, Bai Zhongxin) who still practice the pre-YCF versions of the system.
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