Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby cloudz on Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:21 pm

It is a nice clip
thanks Doc
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:58 pm

cloudz wrote:It is a nice clip
thanks Doc

Thanks, guys. You're welcome. It's all good. :)
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Bao on Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:53 pm

cloudz wrote:
Bao wrote:
Actually I didn’t. I started with saying: “ I can’t speak of all “Wudang Practical Tai Chi Chuan”, but I know some people there...”


and i did say you had a fair observation - on the surface.. but i do think it's a bit of a cop out, and just covered yourself at the get go to go ahead with what then sounded like a critique.

but fair enough.
[/quote]

I can only critique or judge what I have seen or experienced, but I get your point if you think I generalize too much. And well, to be fair, what I recalled here was from a long time ago and I don’t believe I was particularly good myself back then. It was before I had sort of a breakthrough. So my memories and understanding could be colored by my own shortcomings.


By using the Dantian I mean that your body moves from a center.

so then I don't think that critique is a fair or valid one - applied across the board.
what I mean is that it is taught. i find it a bit hard to believe the teacher you came across was totally oblivious to something so basic and fundamental.

look he may not have been great, I don't know. but surely you owe it yourself to base an opinion on a good example.
there are poor examples of any art, system etc.


One of the people I have met and refer to has won PH tournaments and is regarded as one of the better in this lineage. I don’t complain on their skills, they are very good at what they do. What they do, they do in their own way, and the outcome for their own goals seems to be good. I am not complaining on their style, their skills for what they do.

However, I recall that I found some of their way of practicing shallow, not all of it, but some of it. “A do this”, “B respond with that”. Just drilling techniques as any kind of external school without any regard for internal aspects or without regard for basic tai chi principles of body methods. But I have seen many tai chi schools do the same. The overall approach is sometimes very different from what I myself appreciate. You become what you practice. But people have different goals and different methods to reach them. Just as long as you are aware of what you are doing and have a clear strategy it’s fine. And there are other and many ways to ”tap into the internal.”. Just because I didn’t see it, it doesn’t mean that it’s not there.

“Using external strength” means “Li”, or exerting muscle force as opposed to refined jin which in Tai Chi means that you relax the muscles while moving and using your body and limbs. This means that you use the functionality of the muscles that, for example, drives the arm forward or up, but you don’t tense up the muscles. Mostly, tensions and tensing up the body unnecessarily is a reflex, something most people do automatically. You need to practice in a way that you re-program your body use if you are going to understand how to use “Jin“, or a more efficient use of the body. If you practice “techniques” in an external manner without deliberately minding your use of your balance, structure and body tension, you will never learn how to develop jin.


ok then.
I consider myself educated on the matter now.
but for the record just replacing one word for another - foreign or not - neither changes or explains fuck all.


I am not trying to be arrogant or condescending. I don’t express myself very good for the moment, and I am aware of this.


However, there are always levels between using the body in different ways. Using common strength in a common way doesn’t always mean unrefined or clumsy. You can also use common strength or “li” together with good use of leverage and timing. This way even ”li” can be used in a refined manner that becomes effortless.

do let me know, when you can turn water into wine.


I am not sure If I understand what you object to. Doing something effortless is not hard if you have practiced it. But you need to practice it in a conscious manner, preferably having a goal and a method to reach it.


I don’t believe that even 0.001 percent of Tai Chi practitioners uses the term dantian in an “internal” way.

aha
something we agree on ;D


I am just trying to be honest.


Skill and refinement comes in many different shapes and forms.

no, you know them when you see them never the less, they are the same just expressed in different disciplines, arts, systems, sports - whatever.
I'm not sure what you're really trying to say, so I'm going to conclude it's an attempt at obfuscation.
[/quote]

You said “ the way you describe it and what you allude it to, is to me skill and refinement.”

I don’t object to what you are saying. Everything is about skill and refinement. Actually, I don’t separate “external” and “internal” in a way many do.In some respects I don’t see “internal” aspects as very different or separated from “external”. I don’t emphasize either “qi”, “yi” or “mind”. But still, I don’t believe that you can reach any deeper “internal skill” merely by refinement of “common” or “usual” body use. The awareness and deliberate efforts, as well as real methods to reach internal skill, are all important.

My mistake is that I sometimes have a lot to say, but use too little time to express myself. I meant no disrespect to anyone.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby GrahamB on Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:48 pm

Doc - the next video that played after that one by default was this one by Sam Masich who shows how to do that version of the BDJ, but then also seems to expand out into martial applications and more - interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjHGs1JRnB0

I could be wrong.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:37 am

Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby cloudz on Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:29 pm

Hi Bao

My apologies if that came off a little confrontational.
You touch on something.. in some ways it’s like a MacDonald’s franchise without the accountability
There can only be a certain amount of depth with teachers who may not have spent that much one on one with their own.
And or beyond.
There are instructors all over Europe and wider, Dan made a good business model for himself I think, but that’s a double edged sword.

Plus There some pros to being a bit ‘external’ in the early stages- when it comes to practical training. But that shouldn’t be all there is to tai chi. Without certain guidance and or talent etc. Some won’t find a way to greater refinement and skill. There can be any number of reasons why that could be.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Aug 09, 2021 2:12 pm

Even though there is not a lot online
I don't see much difference between what Dan shows and what Chen Tin Hung taught
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby Bao on Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:41 am

cloudz wrote:Hi Bao
My apologies if that came off a little confrontational.


No probs. We should try to solve issues of miscommunication. I am aware of that I don't always express myself very well, and sometimes lack enough diplomacy.

There are instructors all over Europe and wider, Dan made a good business model for himself I think, but that’s a double edged sword.

Plus There some pros to being a bit ‘external’ in the early stages- when it comes to practical training. But that shouldn’t be all there is to tai chi. Without certain guidance and or talent etc. Some won’t find a way to greater refinement and skill. There can be any number of reasons why that could be.


Yeah, I think that the things we see are often much more complicated than it looks and it's hard to judge about why someone does things in a certain way. I like try to figure out things, but on the same time, it's important to be open and admit that we don't have all of the answers.

I do think that these guys are very honest and open about what they do. Sometimes a harder approach can be okay in the beginning. But the practice should continue to go deeper, and the practitioner should have a true and honest goal.
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby cloudz on Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:47 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Even though there is not a lot online
I don't see much difference between what Dan shows and what Chen Tin Hung taught


I’ve seen next to nothing shown by Dan online. The odd form in a very uninterested manner not withstanding

No judgement here; but Neil has revisited the neigong with CTH’s son.
There’s some difference. I think that’s fairly normal though.
And yea, personally I would say it’s better.. shit, I think I may have just made a judgement lol
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Re: Tai Chi Neigong: Using the forces, Self Defence—Neil Rosiak

Postby yeniseri on Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:25 am

ITaiji Neigong is great for health, wellbeing, an excellent fitness technology, etc but it is INEFFECTIVE just by doing the form alone in acquisition of self defense skill or even martial capability!

Without the skills of entering, trapping, throwing, grabbing, etc, one cannot escape from a brown paper bag. It just ain't as some people claim but I will say that if someone finds such a teacher who claims his form will make you an expert just by doing form and nothing else, spend your money wisely. Might as well pay the fellow and do not show up for class, or give the money to a good cause for World Peace. ???
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