Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

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Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

Postby marvin8 on Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:40 am

Martial Arts Journey
Apr 21, 2021

I challenged Wing Chun practitioners to prove that their martial art works. The videos I received surprised me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVuNDVgnBvE

What is not seen in any of the Wing Chun sparring/fighting, in Rokas' video, is trapping the way it's described in this previous thread:

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:
klonk wrote: Are a thousand days of internal gongfu (old meaning, man work, meaning you work and thus you develop) better than a thousand days of external?

When you throw a punch, if your opponent blocks it, you can use your punching arm to pull his blocking arm, and then punch with another hand. If you just train this single technique 100 times daily for 1000 days, you should have repeated this over 100,000 time. You should have developed "punch, grab, and punch" as your "door guarding" skill.

CMA has the solution. But most people just don't spend their training time in those useful area.

Image

Can you answer my earlier question?

marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of any CMA or wing chun fighter using trapping in a competition? If not, why do you think wing chun/CMA fighters choose not to use trapping in fights?

I assume Ding Hao repeated Lop Sao Da "over 100,000 times." Why do you think Ding didn't "throw a punch, if his opponent blocks it, he can use his punching arm to pull his blocking arm, and then punch with another hand?"
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Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

Postby AJG on Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:34 pm

I watched the first video. A good basic analysis with the obvious conclusion around if you train, condition, spar and do realistic drills CMA can work.

Kung Fu was so different when I was young. Fit and conditioned guys who sparred and hit things. OK the apps weren't that special looking but the guys could fight. And the beautiful thing was that most were really supple, not a lot of injuries apart from bruising and the people were good natured. Then something happened and we have what we have now.

You just got to be prepared to work. There is no secret, never was.

But of course not many people want to hear that.
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Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

Postby AJG on Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:03 pm

Drove past a Kungfu shopfront school last night. About 7-10 students all looking like they have done no conditioning swinging their arms about. There was no intensity I could see and no one looked like they were sweating.

Basically preying mantis window at the front says sanda, Qin na, self-defence, taiji, chinese kickboxing etc etc etc. A picture of Bruce Lee was is on the window. You can claim health rebates

A review comment on the school

This is a very exclusive and authentic both, kung fu and tai chi school. Master XXXX is an true master of the art who grew up and learned his technique in china from traditional shaolin grand masters.
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Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

Postby marvin8 on Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:57 pm

AJG wrote:I watched the first video. A good basic analysis with the obvious conclusion around if you train, condition, spar and do realistic drills CMA can work.

Rokas says Wing Chun works, because they spar. However, he didn't mention trapping was missing and footwork was modified looking more like Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do with fencing footwork and trapping said to be phased out.

Original Jeet Kune Do - Thomas Marx IFO
Jan 29, 2021


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH7UsQxlhUQ

Original Jeet Kune Do - Thomas Marx IFO
Sep 4, 2020


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIAtaRULl8U

Excerpt from "'The Explosive Joe Lewis:"

Mike Miles in 1998 wrote:MM: My understanding of where Bruce and JKD was going is different than what is being taught now by his disciples. Is this an accurate comment?

JL: Bruce was moving in the direction of Kickboxing at the time, though it was a very rigid form. Suffice it to say it was less and less like JKD that is portrayed today and more like Kickboxing.

MM: Bruce had a background in Wing Chun, so what about the hand trapping drills from that style?

JL: He was moving away from that and thought it was nonsense. Bruce used to say to me that it belonged in the past. Personally very little of that is effective. Traditional boxing has some trapping techniques that I use once in awhile that are effective. But the Wing Chun stuff does not work against a good fighter like a boxer. You do not even see a lot of trapping in boxing because boxers believe if you have time to trap, then you have time to hit. Once in awhile it may be all right to trap and hit but the multiple or continuous trapping is not practical or functional. Against a good amateur boxer, the boxer will take your head off if you start trying that stuff. My trapping may go as far as to set up a pivot or a spin to the side.

MM: From my research it seems to me Bruce was a little insecure. Maybe he felt when he was working with you that he did not want to teach you trapping because it kept him one step ahead of you in ability. Any thoughts on this?

JL: Bruce was not insecure. Our goals were different; whereas I wanted to be the best at fighting, Bruce wanted to be the first Oriental Superstar. Bruce Lee was not stupid. He was constantly trying to upgrade his JKD. Read what he had to say. There are many contradictions. Why block or trap when you can strike. Bruce was very intelligent when it came to fighting, and that was why he was going to get away from the trapping and the techniques of Wing Chun.
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Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

Postby marvin8 on Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:38 pm

Here is Qi La La in trapping range, but he doesn't trap.

Instead, he yields (pulls), neck grabs, punches and throws, no trapping:

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Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

Postby dspyrido on Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:23 pm

The strange thing about WC was that it was supposed to have developed a lot based on the roof top fights in HK against other styles. So it was a scrappy fighty style. When I did it there was a lot sparring. Not just sticking & slapping but real impact sparring. Heck school challenges still used to happen. Then it went "internal" & things changed.

The strange part was I thought it isolated to where I trained. Seems like it was a world wide unilateral decision. Weird.

marvin8 wrote:Here is Qi La La in trapping range, but he doesn't trap.

Instead, he yields (pulls), neck grabs, punches and throws, no trapping:


What is this gripe with trapping? Yes WC does teach trapping but it also has many other moves including neck grabbing (to elbow or knee), bicep & elbow control, arm drags, several different sweeps, foot taps, knee extensions & a bunch of throws. It also contains a few grabs to qinna. There's even little bits in Biu Tze that are level changes that are supposed to be for headlock escapes (some claim broader application) but when weapons forms are considered there's a lot more level changes.
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Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

Postby C.J.W. on Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:06 pm

I've always felt that WC was originally created as a self-defense style for women with bound feet and limited mobility, which explains its peculiar stance, pelvic positioning, and lack of footwork.

Does it work? Yes, I believe so. But it most likely works a lot better on a drunk, untrained groper than a boxer who is trying to knock you out.
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Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

Postby marvin8 on Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:13 pm

dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Here is Qi La La in trapping range, but he doesn't trap.

Instead, he yields (pulls), neck grabs, punches and throws, no trapping:

What is this gripe with trapping?

I described what Qi La La does and doesn't do. Of what I commented or posted, what do you disagree with?

dspyrido wrote:Yes WC does teach trapping but it also has many other moves including neck grabbing (to elbow or knee), bicep & elbow control, arm drags, several different sweeps, foot taps, knee extensions & a bunch of throws. It also contains a few grabs to qinna. There's even little bits in Biu Tze that are level changes that are supposed to be for headlock escapes (some claim broader application) but when weapons forms are considered there's a lot more level changes.

Yes, I agree that Wing Chun provides some useful techniques/skills. And IMO, Qi La La is a good representative of CMA.

However, the Wing Chun Lap Sao drill johnwang suggested is apparently not practical per Qi La La's fight (and other fights), the Original JKD guy, Joe Lewis and Bruce Lee himself. It's more useful to discuss trapping or Wing Chun that works and raises the level of CMA in fighting.
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Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

Postby AJG on Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:19 pm

I would have thought the typical wing chun stance with its outstretched arm along the centreline actually facilitates the trapping. Against a boxer or other fighter where the hands are held closer and not right in the centreline makes it much harder to achieve the same thing because by reaching you are exposing yourself. The trapping in wing chun is exaggerated anyway as most of the time you see people joining hands then trapping from there. No one is going to want to join hands with you in a more serious encounter or even sparring.

Like DS said lets not overly focus on the trapping. There are other things that could be good.
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Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

Postby Bao on Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:06 am

C.J.W. wrote:I've always felt that WC was originally created as a self-defense style for women with bound feet and limited mobility,


Have no idea why a woman with bound feet would be expected to be able to defend herself. In older days, no woman would be allowed to go out alone in public, she must always be accompanied by at least one man, her husband, a brother, un uncle or similar. This is the very reason to stories as Hua Mulan and other women dressing disguised as men. Common women were not expected to be able to fight or to defend themselves.

Bound feet was a highly common practice in north of China and some regions. But for many parts of China, even if the custom could be found there, mostly only the eldest daughter had bound feet, and only if the parents wanted to raise her as a “lady” and try to

The real women’s fighting systems in China were developed and practiced by Mongol and Manchu women who did not have the custom with foot binding.

which explains its peculiar stance, pelvic positioning,


The “Women’s stance” with the feet pointing inwards is found in many southern styles, though often they don’t stand perfectly square. It’s used in gong practice where you learn to pull up your testicles, and that is why you often start off with this stance in different forms. When you are going to fight, it’s good to start by protecting your balls. ;)

and lack of footwork.


The common WC forms are probably derived from shortened versions of forms. There are a few lesser known lineages that have longer forms with more varied footwork.
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Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

Postby aamc on Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:50 am

To stir the pot. Trapping doesn't work..


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Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

Postby marvin8 on Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:01 am

aamc wrote:To stir the pot. Trapping doesn't work..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiJfk45z2YM
lol

Guard pulling is a simple, momentary trap seen in MMA and boxing.

What is not seen is:

marvin8 wrote:
Joe Lewis wrote:He was moving away from that and thought it was nonsense. Bruce used to say to me that it belonged in the past. Personally very little of that is effective. Traditional boxing has some trapping techniques that I use once in awhile that are effective. But the Wing Chun stuff does not work against a good fighter like a boxer. You do not even see a lot of trapping in boxing because boxers believe if you have time to trap, then you have time to hit. Once in awhile it may be all right to trap and hit but the multiple or continuous trapping is not practical or functional. Against a good amateur boxer, the boxer will take your head off if you start trying that stuff. My trapping may go as far as to set up a pivot or a spin to the side.
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Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

Postby marvin8 on Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:34 pm

Here is how it happened. Usman hand trap (pulling hand) + right cross (Seen in MMA and boxing):

1. Inside jab, left of head - drawing Masvidal's rear hand parry (very start of GIF).
2. Reset.
3. Feint inside jab, left of head - drawing Masvidal's rear hand parry > hook rear hand from outside, pull down + right cross (Note the simultaneous right cross and outside slip to avoid Masvidal's left hook).

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Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

Postby dspyrido on Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:41 pm

Bao wrote:The “Women’s stance” with the feet pointing inwards is found in many southern styles, though often they don’t stand perfectly square. It’s used in gong practice where you learn to pull up your testicles, and that is why you often start off with this stance in different forms. When you are going to fight, it’s good to start by protecting your balls. ;)

and lack of footwork.




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Chun

Two anecdotal histories make sense. Little woman taking out the bad man via a surprise attack (although some say it was a challenge match) or fighting on a river boat theory.

I never liked the yee jee pigeon toe stance until it was adjusted to be more like parallel leg posture as a form of chigung. The thing is wc has other footwork that starts to resemble santi and later horse stance but it was never dynamic enough for me.
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Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

Postby dspyrido on Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:53 pm

marvin8 wrote:
dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Here is Qi La La in trapping range, but he doesn't trap.

Instead, he yields (pulls), neck grabs, punches and throws, no trapping:

What is this gripe with trapping?

I described what Qi La La does and doesn't do. Of what I commented or posted, what do you disagree with?

dspyrido wrote:Yes WC does teach trapping but it also has many other moves including neck grabbing (to elbow or knee), bicep & elbow control, arm drags, several different sweeps, foot taps, knee extensions & a bunch of throws. It also contains a few grabs to qinna. There's even little bits in Biu Tze that are level changes that are supposed to be for headlock escapes (some claim broader application) but when weapons forms are considered there's a lot more level changes.

Yes, I agree that Wing Chun provides some useful techniques/skills. And IMO, Qi La La is a good representative of CMA.

However, the Wing Chun Lap Sao drill johnwang suggested is apparently not practical per Qi La La's fight (and other fights), the Original JKD guy, Joe Lewis and Bruce Lee himself. It's more useful to discuss trapping or Wing Chun that works and raises the level of CMA in fighting.


You don't like lap sao? Don't do it then.

As for its practically - all sensitivity drills are there to teach .... sensitivity (& angles, structure etc). It's a point in time practice that gets mixed with many other drills to sometimes trap one arm & maybe the second but it's not just arm control. As I mentioned WC uses neck grabs, biscep and elbow control to. Even shoulder control and leg control comes in. Lap Sao supports this as a point in time drill that also leads to clinching.

It's a more sophisticated form of hand play & can sit alongside any push hands/roushou drills. If anyone looks at it as a surface level robotic drill then they are not connecting it right (Yes even WC people make this mistake).

If you are only looking at it as only cross arm trapping you're missing the point.
Last edited by dspyrido on Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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