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Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:34 pm
by marvin8
dspyrido wrote:You don't like lap sao? Don't do it then. ...

If you are only looking at it as only cross arm trapping you're missing the point.

Please make your point, give your opinion on why you like lap sao drills, provide videos, examples of good trapping, etc., and/or argue what I already posted (e.g., comments, videos, GIFs, article), rather than make ad hominem arguments.

Again, of what I commented or posted (a lot), what do you disagree with?

marvin8 wrote:Yes, I agree that Wing Chun provides some useful techniques/skills. And IMO, Qi La La is a good representative of CMA.

However, the Wing Chun Lap Sao drill johnwang suggested is apparently not practical per Qi La La's fight (and other fights), the Original JKD guy, Joe Lewis and Bruce Lee himself. It's more useful to discuss trapping or Wing Chun that works and raises the level of CMA in fighting.

marvin8 wrote:
dspyrido wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Here is Qi La La in trapping range, but he doesn't trap.

Instead, he yields (pulls), neck grabs, punches and throws, no trapping:

What is this gripe with trapping?

I described what Qi La La does and doesn't do. Of what I commented or posted, what do you disagree with?

Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:23 am
by dspyrido
marvin8 wrote:Please make your point, give your opinion on why you like lap sao drills, provide videos, examples of good trapping, etc., and/or argue what I already posted (e.g., comments, videos, GIFs, article), rather than make ad hominem arguments.

Again, of what I commented or posted (a lot), what do you disagree with?


Yeah I don't know what is making it so hard to get. This is pretty clear.

dspyrido wrote:You don't like lap sao? Don't do it then.


I can't see how this is hard to not understand about the value of learning to stick & try to control people even at cross arm or whatever.

dspyrido wrote:As for its practically - all sensitivity drills are there to teach .... sensitivity (& angles, structure etc). It's a point in time practice that gets mixed with many other drills to sometimes trap one arm & maybe the second but it's not just arm control. As I mentioned WC uses neck grabs, biscep and elbow control to. Even shoulder control and leg control comes in. Lap Sao supports this as a point in time drill that also leads to clinching.

It's a more sophisticated form of hand play & can sit alongside any push hands/roushou drills. If anyone looks at it as a surface level robotic drill then they are not connecting it right (Yes even WC people make this mistake).


I've posted a bunch of videos around WC that I know you've seen & commented in the past.

Here is an example of the concept I highlighted above.



To emphasise...

dspyrido wrote:If you are only looking at it as only cross arm trapping you're missing the point.

Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 11:47 am
by marvin8
dspyrido wrote:Yeah I don't know what is making it so hard to get. This is pretty clear.

dspyrido wrote:You don't like lap sao? Don't do it then.


I can't see how this is hard to not understand about the value of learning to stick & try to control people even at cross arm or whatever.

Again, it's about Qi La La not using trapping (lap sao) in his fight. What he does, yields (pulls), neck grabs, punches and throws, is found in other combat sports. Can you post a video of a wing chunner trapping (lap sao) or give your opinion on what is specifically discussed (color highlighted)?

marvin8 wrote:Yes, I agree that Wing Chun provides some useful techniques/skills. And IMO, Qi La La is a good representative of CMA.

However, the Wing Chun Lap Sao drill johnwang suggested is apparently not practical per Qi La La's fight (and other fights), the Original JKD guy, Joe Lewis and Bruce Lee himself. It's more useful to discuss trapping or Wing Chun that works and raises the level of CMA in fighting.

marvin8 wrote:What is not seen in any of the Wing Chun sparring/fighting, in Rokas' video, is trapping the way it's described in this previous thread:

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:When you throw a punch, if your opponent blocks it, you can use your punching arm to pull his blocking arm, and then punch with another hand. ...

Image


Can you answer my earlier question?
marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of any CMA or wing chun fighter using trapping in a competition? If not, why do you think wing chun/CMA fighters choose not to use trapping in fights?

Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 2:57 am
by Sean
Here's a compilation of my Ving Tsun Training.
As you can see, we cross train in grappling and spar with boxers and mma guys.
It works.


Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 11:37 am
by marvin8
Sean wrote:Here's a compilation of my Ving Tsun Training.
As you can see, we cross train in grappling and spar with boxers and mma guys.
It works.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCZRpnUsO-w&t=31s

I see you guys drilling lap sao. Do you have a video of you guys sparring/fighting with boxers or mma using lap sao, like in johnwang's example?

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:When you throw a punch, if your opponent blocks it, you can use your punching arm to pull his blocking arm, and then punch with another hand. ...

https://i.postimg.cc/N06fVMbg/Bruce-arm-jam.gif

Can you answer my earlier question?
marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of any CMA or wing chun fighter using trapping in a competition? If not, why do you think wing chun/CMA fighters choose not to use trapping in fights?


I posted Kamaru Usman (MMA) using a similar pulling hand trap in a fight, https://imgur.com/j3rsBrE.gif.

Here is Julian Williams (boxing) using a similar pulling hand trap + right cross. However, he gets countered (doesn't slip the uppercut) and KO'd.

Image

Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 4:40 am
by Sean
@marvin8

There's literally a whole section in that video with snippets from sparring sessions.
Did you watch the whole thing?
Plenty of Ving Tsun technique to see in those (albeit short) clips.

I think you may misunderstand, however, the laap sau drill. It's not just about "trapping" with the pulling hand. You could say that it's a natural segue-way between chi sau and gwoh sau. It’s a highly dynamic and also deep drill that helps to develop the central tools and strategies of the system - general attributes such as dynamic alignement, footwork, distance and timing, as well as specific actions such as bong, lap, pak, jut, fak, etc.

The lap sau drill is NOT just about standing in place and changing from bong to lap/punch or lap/fak or lap/back fist or what have you. Like in the videos of Bruce Lee.

One could see the two sides of the drill as representing two different strategies: The bong/wu side is the « active » side, as it represents a position that is far from ideal (only one hand directed toward the opponent) and must be changed or converted quickly. The wu/man side, on the other hand, represents the idea of "waiting and probing"…with many possibilities for counter-attack.

The over-arching idea of "attacking into the attack » and cutting off the opponent’s possibilities for counter attack is ever present in this drill. But also the idea of leading your opponent into your counter attack by managing distance and space.

Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 11:05 am
by marvin8
Sean wrote:@marvin8
There's literally a whole section in that video with snippets from sparring sessions.
Did you watch the whole thing?

Yes. Can you timestamp where ...?

marvin8 wrote:Do you have a video of you guys sparring/fighting with boxers or mma using lap sao, like in johnwang's example?


In the OP:

marvin8 wrote:... What is not seen in any of the Wing Chun sparring/fighting, in Rokas' video, is trapping the way it's described in this previous thread:

johnwang wrote:When you throw a punch, if your opponent blocks it, you can use your punching arm to pull his blocking arm, and then punch with another hand. If you just train this single technique 100 times daily for 1000 days, you should have repeated this over 100,000 time. You should have developed "punch, grab, and punch" as your "door guarding" skill.

CMA has the solution. But most people just don't spend their training time in those useful area.

https://i.postimg.cc/N06fVMbg/Bruce-arm-jam.gif[/img]


marvin8 wrote:Can you post a video of any CMA or wing chun fighter using trapping in a competition? If not, why do you think wing chun/CMA fighters choose not to use trapping in fights?

I assume Ding Hao repeated Lop Sao Da "over 100,000 times." Why do you think Ding didn't "throw a punch, if his opponent blocks it, he can use his punching arm to pull his blocking arm, and then punch with another hand?"


marvin8 wrote:Rokas says Wing Chun works, because they spar. However, he didn't mention trapping was missing and ...

Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 11:01 pm
by yeniseri
My experience is that people expect to apply their skill from the gitgo but this is a mistake. Through setup, feigns, application and final knockout/knockdown takes time and the better person along with better physical conditioning (stamina!) will win the encounter. Trying to apply this fresh on the floor will always be a no go unless the other failed to train so he gets knocked out in the 1st 3-5min into the bout. I trained with some wing chun people and they taught me a few lesson because I was not familiar with their mode of sparring and they were younger but still I kept an open mind.
p.s. I am an old man and now very slow compared to my younger days! BTW (figure of speech)

Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 1:51 am
by cloudz
Nice clip Sean!
you see the flavour there.

things working or not are really a matter of context.
then generally speaking you can think of a scale, in terms of what's more or less useful
objectively speaking, to the average person, seeking xyz from something
then subjectively speaking to oneself, for your particular circumstances.

Re: Wing Chun Actually Works?! — Rokas (Martial Arts Journey)

PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 4:18 pm
by dspyrido
If WC'ers want to transition to kickboxing then they should look at this guy.



From a rough 7min on shows his hand bridging skills such as lead hand manipulation to trapping, framing, elbow/head control etc. From a boxers/kickboxer lens this is smothering but at outside range this not the norm for many of these guys and only a few can pull off the effect of temporarily trapping to close the gap, get position & strike.

Does he train in lap sau? Don't care. As a person who has trained both kickboxing & WC I can say that the skills of guard control make a nice bridge between the styles. Kickboxing has much better footwork & evasion. WC has much better trapping skills & some extra characteristics for deflection & striking that are useful.