Tai Chi Push Hands Meditation Damon Bramich

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Re: Tai Chi Push Hands Meditation Damon Bramich

Postby oragami_itto on Mon May 03, 2021 2:12 pm

Bao wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:. It has been made clear time and again that my own thoughts and observations are meaningless, so I'd rather not waste the group's time with them.


Your opinions are just as valid as anyone else’s. HTFU ;D ;) 8-)


Well to be honest I was more trying to escape giving an opinion than looking for validation.

That said, I don't really see a connection between what is being displayed here and what I've seen in Micah or Damon's push hands. That could just be my ignorance.

I also consider the particular exercise to be a great laboratory for the fundamental skills. I don't see in this practice what I usually try to embody in my own. We could have different ideas of what the exercise is for. I'm sure they get what they expect out of it.
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Re: Tai Chi Push Hands Meditation Damon Bramich

Postby Doc Stier on Mon May 03, 2021 2:34 pm

wayne hansen wrote:
Doc Stier wrote:Our time and effort is better spent in practicing whatever we like best, and promoting that, rather than wasting time criticising what we don't like. To each their own as they deem best for themselves. :-\



The natural conclusion of what you say is to never read or post here
Just train all day

Pffft! What a hoot. Talk about cognitive dissonance. ::)

So, in your opinion then, the only good reason to read or post anything hear is to criticize the comment and video posts of other group members, that great sea of unwashed masses who are your lessers in every way, right? Lol. Wow! :o
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Re: Tai Chi Push Hands Meditation Damon Bramich

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Mon May 03, 2021 6:11 pm

Doc Stier wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:
Doc Stier wrote:Our time and effort is better spent in practicing whatever we like best, and promoting that, rather than wasting time criticising what we don't like. To each their own as they deem best for themselves. :-\



The natural conclusion of what you say is to never read or post here
Just train all day

Pffft! What a hoot. Talk about cognitive dissonance. ::)

So, in your opinion then, the only good reason to read or post anything hear is to criticize the comment and video posts of other group members, that great sea of unwashed masses who are your lessers in every way, right? Lol. Wow! :o


Come on, Doc. Have you not read Wayne's posts? They are all derision with nary a kind word for anyone nor constructive criticism.
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Re: Tai Chi Push Hands Meditation Damon Bramich

Postby wayne hansen on Mon May 03, 2021 8:57 pm

Please tell me the positive things you see in the clip
I was just responding to what was asked
Please don’t gang up on me you will make me cry
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Re: Tai Chi Push Hands Meditation Damon Bramich

Postby Bao on Tue May 04, 2021 12:18 am

Doc Stier wrote:Our time and effort is better spent in practicing whatever we like best, and promoting that, rather than wasting time criticising what we don't like.


A discussion board is not about criticism. People visit a board to learn more and to evaluate what they do and compare with what other people do. And they discuss what other people do to confirm what they do, look if things can be done different, get inspiration, etc. Discussing, or reading discussions, doesn't mean that people practice less.

If everyone only promoted what they did, this would turn into an advertising plattform that only the promotors visit, just like what has happened to the majority of badly moderated facebook groups.

The many different opinions and the diversity of views is a good thing. IMHO.

oragami_itto wrote:
I don't see in this practice what I usually try to embody in my own. We could have different ideas of what the exercise is for. I'm sure they get what they expect out of it.


Thanks you for replying and sharing your thoughts.

I am not sure if they do. I like that they keep the circles small and that they have a pretty upright posture. There are some basic things that I appreciate and it seems that they've got a few things better than many others (most people seem to be absolutely clueless about what they do). But otoh, they don't seem to have the intent to actually push each other, and only push at the arms, or on the "frame". I prefer closer positions and more body movement, actually turning around the centreline.

I've never understood how this rigid body rocking back and forth only would help to develop anything useful. Imagine if one person would not retreat and keep the forward position. Then the other person who retreated has no where place left to go. And if he is not used to actually use his waist and spine, he would be completely trapped. This is what happens when you don't approach the exercise from a martial POV. And this is why my original comment was "beginners mindset". Though I know that they are not tai chi beginners, they approach the exercise as if they were.

Personally I am not a fan of fixed drills, regardless if it's "push hands" or "spinning/circling hands" though I see it as a necessary stage for beginners. But it's important to not get stuck in this mind-set and be aware that there are things that, if you would do free push hands or other free exercises, would be considered as mistakes and faults. Those mistakes and faults are inherited in the basic exercises, and it can be very hard to get rid of them if you are not aware about their limitations.
Last edited by Bao on Tue May 04, 2021 12:23 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Push Hands Meditation Damon Bramich

Postby Formosa Neijia on Wed Jun 02, 2021 8:21 pm

oragami_itto wrote:What does the group think of this?




Is the guy in black trying to get his wrist broken? Because that's how you get your wrist broken. Unless qinna was not allowed but then this is a good reason to allow it. Mistakes like that get corrected fast.
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Re: Tai Chi Push Hands Meditation Damon Bramich

Postby Roll Back on Thu Jun 03, 2021 6:59 pm

“A discussion board is not about criticism. People visit a board to learn more and to evaluate what they do and compare with what other people do. And they discuss what other people do to confirm what they do, look if things can be done different, get inspiration, etc. Discussing, or reading discussions, doesn't mean that people practice less.

If everyone only promoted what they did, this would turn into an advertising plattform that only the promotors visit, just like what has happened to the majority of badly moderated facebook groups.

The many different opinions and the diversity of views is a good thing. IMHO. “

With that said let me share what I think. I practice Zhaobao and we call it, “two person arm circles “. Not to say “Push Hands” is incorrect. In house we have three types of practice. First is practicing with your own level and or close to it. This is about 90% of the time. This is broken down into two different approaches. The first one is perpetually circles where each person learns how to use energy given to them and give it back. Then how to use the energy and direct into a technique.Then about 5% is with someone with more experience. This person takes your energy and puts you out or stays with you and gives you a feeling or understanding. Then about 5% someone right under your ability to help understand the energy of what you do because it is easier. Then back to your equal partner for further development.

So what is bad energy from another person practicing push hands. One is they flat out have bad energy and I have experienced this yet the person can change through practice. Also I feel as we age doing the internals at least for me I can feel someone’s bad energy and I do not want anything to do with it. Thus I also have no desire to test my skills, yet when I was was younger I would not have hesitated. I got sidetracked, the other energy is bad habits. I see a lot of bad habits being developed through push hands practice.
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Re: Tai Chi Push Hands Meditation Damon Bramich

Postby Walk the Torque on Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:03 pm

Doc Stier wrote:Our time and effort is better spent in practicing whatever we like best, and promoting that, rather than wasting time criticising what we don't like. To each their own as they deem best for themselves. :-\


Yep, and that will change too ;D
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Re: Tai Chi Push Hands Meditation Damon Bramich

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:07 pm

If a discussion board is not about criticism how do you learn anything
If you tell a student everything he does is right are you not stealing from him
No one here is my student
I just say what I think
If I am wrong I am wrong
Don't listen
Every now and then I have someone write to me on the back channel and tell me what I write is valuable to them
For those that don't like what I say just treat me like the silly old man I am
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Re: Tai Chi Push Hands Meditation Damon Bramich

Postby dspyrido on Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:05 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:Is the guy in black trying to get his wrist broken? Because that's how you get your wrist broken. Unless qinna was not allowed but then this is a good reason to allow it. Mistakes like that get corrected fast.


Isn't all TC ultimately be about setting up applications of qinna mixed in with strikes on soft/levered bits?
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Re: Tai Chi Push Hands Meditation Damon Bramich

Postby Formosa Neijia on Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:53 am

dspyrido wrote:
Formosa Neijia wrote:Is the guy in black trying to get his wrist broken? Because that's how you get your wrist broken. Unless qinna was not allowed but then this is a good reason to allow it. Mistakes like that get corrected fast.


Isn't all TC ultimately be about setting up applications of qinna mixed in with strikes on soft/levered bits?


Depends on how it's trained and who is training it.

For example, a certain taiji superstar from Taiwan with a PhD. in engineering and a string of books did a series of seminars for the top taiji association in Taiwan back around 2008. None of these teachers knew any applications of the taiji form and had no ability to do said apps in push hands. The idea that qinna was involved was a shock to them. This went over like a turd in the punchbowl if you will forgive the metaphor and this is what I heard from the Taiwan side. Too many people think the only app practiced in taiji is push.
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Re: Tai Chi Push Hands Meditation Damon Bramich

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:20 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:
The idea that qinna was involved was a shock to them. This went over like a turd in the punchbowl if you will forgive the metaphor and this is what I heard from the Taiwan side. Too many people think the only app practiced in taiji is push.


To be fair.

Of the teachers I've met while in Taiwan a lot of the focus was on the type of "jin" energy developed...
For most it seemed. more important then "functionality"
a mistake imo.

Kind of understandable considering it's their practice's focus,
why/what people go to them to learn.


Regarding "taiji push" people who talk about "only" using push in taiji have a very limited understanding of it.
Part of this due to the misunderstanding the what, "push-hands" is used for,
the promotion of it as a competitive event.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:47 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Push Hands Meditation Damon Bramich

Postby Formosa Neijia on Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:19 pm

windwalker wrote:Of the teachers I've met while in Taiwan a lot of the focus was on the type of "jin" energy developed...
For most it seemed. more important then "functionality"
a mistake imo.

Kind of understandable considering it's their practice's focus,
why/what people go to them to learn.


Well this wasn't every teacher in Taiwan of course, but it was the major official taiji association, which has taken on its own flavor over the decades and therefore attracts certain types of people. They are also the most into teacher training, for better or for worse, so they have the numbers.

I agree with you that taking out the functionality was/is a huge mistake as it severely limits both the practice and therefore the understanding of the art. How they would even begin to understand pluck (cai) or split (lieh) without qinna is beyond me but then I didn't stay with them any longer than it took to get my certificate. But then as you point out, you have to consider their audience of middle age and senior Taiwanese who likely aren't much interested in apps.
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Re: Tai Chi Push Hands Meditation Damon Bramich

Postby windwalker on Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:08 pm

They are also the most into teacher training, for better or for worse, so they have the numbers.


It was my understanding that in order to teach professionally or have a gym you have to be certified.
Could be mistaken.

Mostly the teachers I interacted with where the ones teaching in the parks.
Whatever I thought of others practices, made sure to always respect the teachers and group
understanding the different focus.

Taiji billed, as an “internal” art, tends to attract people looking for the internal expecting to find something that is quite different from what they’ve experienced or aligned with what they’ve been led to believe.

For The most part “publicly” most people are not training to learn necessarily the fighting or usage aspects.
As you indicated the demographics tend to be quite different aligning with training focus.

Peace park, When I last visited a couple of years back had a wide variety of people at many levels training on many different things. Like the parks in Beijing, one had to make sure the level and intent of an encounter.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:00 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Tai Chi Push Hands Meditation Damon Bramich

Postby dspyrido on Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:44 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:The idea that qinna was involved was a shock to them.


As an outsider TC appears to be...

People spend years on a form like they are going to be performing for Beijing Opera or somehow think it translates to some higher state of consciousness. It can be years before they move past that.

Advancement in weapons in a similar sense is somehow representative of the culmination of solo practise in the art.Then interaction with other humans is seen as some higher level form of the art but the competitive state is just pushing people.

And then after a decade can barely defend themselves against an average thug.

Rarely have I seen it taught differently. Where it is then it's a lot more martial relevant.

Am I being unfair? Is this the right path for TC? How should it be done?
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