Internal Kung Fu Power: REAL or FAKE? — Mindful Wing Chun

[marvin8]

Mindful Wing Chun
May 13, 2021

*** IMPORTANT NOTE: This video was not made with the intention to disrespect any art or any teacher/practitioner within or out of this video. It is merely an opinion on the sometimes unrealistic level of compliance by the students and training partners and a suggestion to apply a more realistic force or resistance to the demonstrator ***

In this Part 1 of the 2 part clip, Grandmaster Chu Shong Tin tests his power against an Olympic weight lifter nearly 3 times his size. You can judge for yourself the realism of this compared to other powerful demonstrations.

Here, as mentioned above, we discuss the reason why some people play the game of compliance when they are at the end of their teacher's movement. Nima share's his opinion on why this is not good for Kung Fu, the student, nor the teacher.

Kung Fu's internal power is real but some are turning it out to be mystical and playing the game of compliance which has been played for many decades if not centuries. This happens within the CST lineage a lot as well so again, this is not to point fingers to any person or method in particular but its a general issue within the Internal Arts. It gives Kung Fu a bad name in this day and age and it takes realism away from the demonstrations cause people are smart and can see when something is over exaggerated and put on.

So, perhaps this compliant way of testing each other's movements is one 'tradition' that we should break because it is not beneficial for the arts. The only benefit of giving compliant force is when teaching as described in the 10minute mark of this video...

PART 2 - COMING SOON - subscribe to ensure you don't miss it!

Ps. If you are interested in experiencing this method of Kung Fu , you can begin your practice online at: https://www.mindfulwingchun.online


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioeXiOx6zFY

Mindful Wing Chun
May 23, 2021

Check out Part 1 of this video:
In part 1 of this video, we saw Grandmaster Chu Shong Tin put his power to test against 'Black Mountain' who was the Olympic Weight Lifting Champion of Holland and was nearly 3times bigger in size than Chu Shong Tin!! If you haven't seen part 1, make sure you do so to put this part2 video in context.

In this 2nd part of the video, Nima discusses further how Chu Shong Tin's teachings were very real and tangible and far from mystical, and the fact that he always tried to use physics and scientific explanations. This kept him grounded and down to earth and kept the art attainable and real!

Of course he also did admit when he didn't understand things, like the flow or energy (or something) that he was able to tangibly put through his body. He called this flow 'Nim Lik' which can be translated to Mind Power. whether it was the same Chi / Qi that other internal forms of Kung Fu talk about or not, he wasn't sure and he made that clear, but he was able to use this flow to either seize the partner's joints from moving, or he was able to use it to relax and even heal the person.

In conclusion, its important in this day and age, not to make the arts look fake through unrealistic compliant method of testing each other. Students must try and challenge their teachers and so expose the areas in which the teacher needs to work on. If all students are so very compliant that as soon as the teacher moves they throw themselves to the floor, this is going to eventually destroy the art and lead to their heads remaining in the clouds...

Kung Fu's internal power is very remarkable and real, so please, let's not make a joke of it!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfE12kUOo7E

[Bao]

He is very good in making something rather basic sound special. But sure, he presents it very well, and better and clearer than most people regardless art.

"Li (common strength) comes from the muscles, Jin (intrinsic/skilled strength) comes from tendons/sinews" is a rather well known proverb in Chinese arts. If you want to make use of jin, you need to keep the mobility and movements in the limbs and joints by not tensing up the muscles as you move. Sounds easy, hard to do well. And often a little bit of re-programming is necessary to get it. But it's the same principle in Chinese arts, regardless if it's about Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Xingyi etc. The idea of basic use of Jin is the same in many arts, or maybe in most of the Chinese arts (I say "basic" jin as there is also specific "Taiji jin", "Xingyi jin" and "WC jin" etc.)

However, I like Kaufman's explanation and attitude better as he is more humble as his approach is not "we do it better".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zcx61EGvZU

[GrahamB]

To do what he's doing you have to be using the power of the ground through a relaxed body. I don't know why these people never say that - it's all tendon this, jin that - Makes it sound more mysterious I guess? Let their force drop into the ground through you and it's amazing what you can do.

[Bao]

"To do what he's doing you have to be using the power of the ground through a relaxed body."

Well, Nima has repeatedly said that he doesn't need to use the power from the ground. ...So I am not sure that he would agree...

(This is also one reason why I like Kaufman's explanation better. He (same lineage as Nima), says that he uses the whole body, or the body as a whole, and he doesn't leave the ground out of the equation. )

[marvin8]

"To do what he's doing you have to be using the power of the ground through a relaxed body."

Well, Nima has repeatedly said that he doesn't need to use the power from the ground. ...So I am not sure that he would agree...

(This is also one reason why I like Kaufman's explanation better. He (same lineage as Nima), says that he uses the whole body, or the body as a whole, and he doesn't leave the ground out of the equation. )

Well @ 30:53 (and elsewhere), Kaufman says you don't have to use the ground. John and Nima seem to be saying the same thing.

Another CST lineage student explains the same here ...

Chi Sau Club
Sep 4, 2020

This video shows the different effects of different ways of generating power. Effectively these are just progressively more skilful ways of generating power, with each "level" just being a more relaxed way of organising the body and producing a more powerful force. ...

Floating centre refers to relaxing and opening all the joints so that the whole structure is springy and elastic. There is no need to brace off the ground, as demonstrated by walking on the spot. The person generating the force feels that the opponent's resistance does not effect them at all, and that generating the force is completely effortless. When the whole structure is springy and elastic the person resisting cannot feel where the force is coming from, and the force is elusive yet unstoppable.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emfuITInL6Q

[Bao]

Well @ 30:53 (and elsewhere), Kaufman says you don't have to use the ground. John and Nima seem to be saying the same thing.

What he says is that he doesn't need to take it down and then up again, which is a different thing than to not use ground force/ground path. In the vid he also says that he uses the whole body, but that you always have an alignment to the floor so that you don't need too think about it. And instead of thinking about "taking force from the ground" you start to "turn the gears". So he acknowledges that the strength comes from the whole body, including the legs and feet.

But Nima have often and repeatedly said that he doesn't need to use the ground, period. And he also say that his "jin" comes from the spine, or by lengthening the spine.

This video shows the different effects of different ways of generating power. Effectively these are just progressively more skilful ways of generating power, with each "level" just being a more relaxed way of organising the body and producing a more powerful force. ...

Floating centre refers to relaxing and opening all the joints so that the whole structure is springy and elastic. There is no need to brace off the ground, as demonstrated by walking on the spot. The person generating the force feels that the opponent's resistance does not effect them at all, and that generating the force is completely effortless. When the whole structure is springy and elastic the person resisting cannot feel where the force is coming from, and the force is elusive yet unstoppable.

Brace is bracing, not that the ground path is not there. I would highlight this instead: "When the whole structure is springy and elastic the person resisting cannot feel where the force is coming from,"

Also, at 0.40 the text says "grounded power".

Again, what Nima says and expresses is not the same as here.

I remember a few years ago when I still was a member of Mike Sigmans 6H FB group (no, I was not thrown out weirdly enough as so many others even though I often expressed different opinions than him. I left free and willingly because I was so tired of the repetitive discussions and of Sigman's bully-ish approach to everyone and everything.). Anyway, both Kryeger (Martial Man) and Nima tried to convince Mike and everyone that they did something in their Wing Chun that was "different" than in northern IMA, and that they didn't use the ground path. They kept argumenting for their cause and was thrown out when Mike got tired of them. So when I am speaking about Nima's approach and what he says, it's not about my own interpretation, it's about something that Nima himself has discussed and argumented about for a long time, on different platforms and in different places.

[windwalker]

Brace is bracing, not that the ground path is not there. I would highlight this instead: "When the whole structure is springy and elastic the person resisting cannot feel where the force is coming from,"

Instead of the other person having to feel where the opposing force is coming from. The other person cannot feel where to apply their force to resist.

Like standing in ocean surf, being carried off unable to stand or resist

[marvin8]

Well @ 30:53 (and elsewhere), Kaufman says you don't have to use the ground. John and Nima seem to be saying the same thing.

What he says is that he doesn't need to take it down and then up again, which is a different thing than to not use ground force/ground path. In the vid he also says that he uses the whole body, but that you always have an alignment to the floor so that you don't need too think about it. And instead of thinking about "taking force from the ground" you start to "turn the gears". So he acknowledges that the strength comes from the whole body, including the legs and feet.

But Nima have often and repeatedly said that he doesn't need to use the ground, period. And he also say that his "jin" comes from the spine, or by lengthening the spine.

I believe you are misunderstanding Kaufman and his student, Mark Spence. "Take it down and then up again" is the same as "use ground force/ground path."

Kaufman @ 31:38, "Use no force, stand up straight, which later became raise energy up from the base of the spine, through the spine to the crown of the head (Floating centre)."

Brace is bracing, not that the ground path is not there. I would highlight this instead: "When the whole structure is springy and elastic the person resisting cannot feel where the force is coming from,"

... Also, at 0.40 the text says "grounded power".

Per Kaufman's facebook page and his student (Mark Spence), "bracing" is ground path which is part of "Structural power." "The whole structure is springy and elastic" is part of "Floating centre:"

Chi Sau Club
Sep 4, 2020

"This video shows the different effects of different (three) ways of generating power. Effectively these are just progressively more skilful ways of generating power, with each "level" just being a more relaxed way of organising the body and producing a more powerful force.

Structural power refers to being able to arrange the joints of the body in such a way that a very stable and strong structure is produced, and any incoming force is supported through the structure. The person generating the force is still bracing off the ground in order to produce structural power. Structural power still requires some degree of muscular exertion, and the person resisting feels that the force that is effecting them is solid and obvious.

Grounded power refers to relaxing further within the structure to allow force to pass through the structure and into the ground, rather than bracing directly off the ground. The person generating the force feels that any resistance goes through their body and into the ground, making them heavier. The person resisting feels that the power is harder to resist against and more powerful.

Floating centre refers to relaxing and opening all the joints so that the whole structure is springy and elastic. There is no need to brace off the ground, as demonstrated by walking on the spot. The person generating the force feels that the opponent's resistance does not effect them at all, and that generating the force is completely effortless. When the whole structure is springy and elastic the person resisting cannot feel where the force is coming from, and the force is elusive yet unstoppable."

Again, what Nima says and expresses is not the same as here.

Nima, Kaufman and Spence, students of CST, have described the same Floating Centre level of power generation, which is "a more relaxed way of organising the body and producing a more powerful force."

[windwalker]

Well @ 30:53 (and elsewhere), Kaufman says you don't have to use the ground. John and Nima seem to be saying the same thing.

Accords with my experience, although would not express it in the same way.
Instead of thinking about it as generating a force, think about it as controlling or affecting their center.

By doing this no force can be expressed from it, for them It’s like standing on “ice “

The reactions the first clip talks about, the author does not seem to understand why or how they are made. He keeps mentioning the word “compliant” apparently not understanding that all demonstrations by virtue of being demonstration are compliant.

Nor does he seem to understand the idea, if someone has control of the other’s center, they will react and move in ways that they may not understand or be aware of.

Reacting to what they’re feeling internally not something that’s being done to them externally.

[windwalker]

IME

As long as it’s looked at treated as a “ force “
One will always be outside the understanding of what’s happening or how to train a method
That focuses on setting up the conditions were by “it” happens through itself.

A big jump from causing or doing something, to allowing “it” to happen through
It self.

[Bao]

IME

As long as it’s looked at treated as a “ force “
One will always be outside the understanding of what’s happening or how to train a method
That focuses on setting up the conditions were by “it” happens through itself.

A big jump from causing or doing something to allowing something.

Very true.

The reactions the first clip talks about, the author does not seem to understand why or how they are made. He keeps mentioning the word “compliant” apparently not understanding that all demonstrations by virtue of being demonstration are compliant.

Nor does he seem to understand the idea, if someone has control of the other’s center, they will react and move in ways that they may not understand or be aware of.

Agreed.

Structural power ... The person generating the force is still bracing off the ground in order to produce structural power. Structural power still requires some degree of muscular exertion, and the person resisting feels that the force that is effecting them is solid and obvious.

Grounded power... The person generating the force feels that any resistance goes through their body and into the ground, making them heavier.

Floating centre refers to relaxing and opening all the joints so that the whole structure is springy and elastic. There is no need to brace off the ground, as demonstrated by walking on the spot. The person generating the force feels that the opponent's resistance does not effect them at all, and that generating the force is completely effortless. When the whole structure is springy and elastic the person resisting cannot feel where the force is coming from, and the force is elusive yet unstoppable."

Oh... I didn't like that at all.

Maybe it is a good description on their own WC's progress. But as they (Nima especially) always compare what they do to other styles, and that it would be more "advanced" than "IMA", I will just call it rubbish and very uneducated if it's an attempt to describe development of internal power generation in general. But I can see here, and now better understand, how they project their own understanding of the development of jin in their own style, to other systems. There is so much to say about this, but I will satisfy myself for the time being by saying that it ignores many important things as rooting /development of stability/balance, as well as the implications of the mind. Thus what is said here represents a view that is too narrow to apply to any internal art.

"This video shows the different effects of different (three) ways of generating power."

From my own position and understanding from IMA at least, I don't understand how the video would represent any skilled use of jin, or even any of the three levels described. Anytime the demonstrator meets up with his opponent, his legs wobbles and his toes leave the ground. There's no developed structure or balance in sight what so ever, neither external or internal. As his own balance and structure is so poor, there is no demonstration here neither of good use of bracing nor of "grounded" power.

And the floating centre??? He always have a center, it's on the same place on his body all of the time. How does it float? It doesn't float around even when he walks, instead he tries to keep it levelled, which is something opposite to having it floating around or being not present.

Nima, Kaufman and Spence, students of CST, have described the same Floating Centre level of power generation, which is "a more relaxed way of organising the body and producing a more powerful force."

Didn't see anything very powerful here. But what do they mean by more powerful? More powerful force than what? More powerful than their own lower levels? Would be crazy if it wasn't.

[Bhassler]

Skipped through talking in the first video to watch the demos. The Chu Shong Tin demos were simple leverage-- there was nothing "internal" or "external" about either one. It's the sideways force that moves the guys, not the downward force. The second big guy had better alignment vertically, but was still moved by the horizontal force. When Chu Shong Tin was resisting the same movement, he angled his forearm in across his body, so he had both vertical and horizontal support. It doesn't speak well for his student (if Mindful Wing Chun is, in fact, his student) or anyone else claiming to be some kind of Internal Powah authority if they can't see that right off the bat...

[windwalker]

How would they see past their own experience, or what the teacher provided ,
if they were not already close to having an understanding of their own.

In most cases it requires giving up what one feels they already know.

Not such an easy thing to do.

Requiring a lot of inner clarity

[Bhassler]

How would they see past their own experience, or what the teacher provided ,
if they were not already close to having an understanding of their own.

In most cases it requires giving up what one feels they already know.

Not such an easy thing to do.

Requiring a lot of inner clarity

If one does have their own understanding, or their experience is limited to a single source or context, then perhaps they shouldn't be teaching or posting videos online claiming to know about what's "real" or "fake".

[robert]

Floating centre refers to relaxing and opening all the joints so that the whole structure is springy and elastic. There is no need to brace off the ground, as demonstrated by walking on the spot. The person generating the force feels that the opponent's resistance does not effect them at all, and that generating the force is completely effortless. When the whole structure is springy and elastic the person resisting cannot feel where the force is coming from, and the force is elusive yet unstoppable."

Kaufman writes:

Floating centre refers to completely relaxing all of the joints. This means every single joint is free to rotate in any direction. There is no bracing. Every joint in the body behaves like a beach ball floating in a pool, able to rotate force off effortlessly. There is no need to take force to the ground, because you do not allow the opponent's force into your structure at all.

Huh? Is he saying he has a supernatural force field around his body? He either doesn't understand physics or he's denying it or both. An exercise ball is empty, but still has structure. Place an exercise ball on a scale and push down on the ball and the scale will indicate how much force you're exerting on the ball. The exercise ball will transfer the force from you to the scale (the ground). Kaufman seems to be writing that this does not happen with him.