Internal Kung Fu Power: REAL or FAKE? — Mindful Wing Chun

[windwalker]

Kaufman writes:

Floating centre refers to completely relaxing all of the joints. This means every single joint is free to rotate in any direction. There is no bracing. Every joint in the body behaves like a beach ball floating in a pool, able to rotate force off effortlessly. There is no need to take force to the ground, because you do not allow the opponent's force into your structure at all.

Huh? Is he saying he has a supernatural force field around his body? He either doesn't understand physics or he's denying it or both. An exercise ball is empty, but still has structure.

Place an exercise ball on a scale and push down on the ball and the scale will indicate how much force you're exerting on the ball. The exercise ball will transfer the force from you to the scale (the ground). Kaufman seems to be writing that this does not happen with him.

The Wei Qi is a protective energy field which emanates from the body, guarding it from external pathogens, emotional, climatic, and electro-magnetic invasion.

When it is healthy, your Wei Qi selectively allows specific energies into your field.

This protective Wei Qi barrier is somewhat similar to the Western concept of the Aura, however the Daoist Wei Qi is very different in emphasis, cultivation, and how it is used.

https://fiveseasonsmedicine.com/whats-p ... -build-it/

Interesting isn't it?

Place an exercise ball on a scale and push down on the ball and the scale will indicate how much force you're exerting on the ball.

Using this idea still relies on direct force, although it might be used to understand how "expanding" "pung/peng" energy can be expressed.

A different way of looking at it.

Sam Chin Fan-siong,

that the center of the spherical surface at the point of contact with the opponent does not even have to be within your body—it can be anywhere as long as (a) your body is inside the extension of the spherical surface at the contact point and (b) the force you exert is perpendicularly outward from that surface.

.

He leaves out some obvious conclusions, purposefully or not , probably best not mentioned here

It is interesting that two native Chinese people who were famous in the T’ai-Chi world—Cheng Man-ch’ing, born over a century ago, and Yearning K. Chen—felt that physics was a useful tool in explaining neutralization.

Practicing intuitively for many years in an effort to master an art is certainly of great value. However, using every tool—in this case physics—cannot but hasten mastery for some and make the difference between mastery and partial expertise for others.

http://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/ChengCh.7.html

It might more correct to say that different methods specialize in different applications of how force is issued and dealt with.
Among the Yang family, YLC sons were noted for different specializations of their fathers methods, which would later go on to become
even more more specialized as noted practitioners of the style would emerge.

[robert]

The Wei Qi is a protective energy field which emanates from the body, guarding it from external pathogens, emotional, climatic, and electro-magnetic invasion.

When it is healthy, your Wei Qi selectively allows specific energies into your field.

This protective Wei Qi barrier is somewhat similar to the Western concept of the Aura, however the Daoist Wei Qi is very different in emphasis, cultivation, and how it is used.

https://fiveseasonsmedicine.com/whats-p ... -build-it/

Interesting isn't it?

Do you think wei qi can be used to strike someone? Do you think it can be used to throw them to the ground? Can it be used to fight? Do you think that is what is being demonstrated by these wing chun guys?

[windwalker]

Not what I think, what I know based on experience.
Experiences , may differ It’s not the issue.

Most who delve into IMA are probably familiar with the concept of “wei Qi”, although it may not be something they actively pursue, or develop in their practices.

As to the WC guys, there are many levels to what’s called “internal “ practice.

For most approaching the deeper levels they may find that they’re approaching something that cannot be understood through intellect, which some attempt to offer explanations based on, as in the first OP’s clip.
In providing answers as to why he feels the students of some teachers react as they do.

[robert]

Not what I think, what I know based on experience.
Experiences , may differ It’s not the issue.

OK. I can't say I've ever seen wei qi demonstrated in a martial context. If that is what Kaufman was talking about it's not something I can discuss.

[Bao]

Kaufman writes:

Floating centre refers to completely relaxing all of the joints. This means every single joint is free to rotate in any direction. There is no bracing. Every joint in the body behaves like a beach ball floating in a pool, able to rotate force off effortlessly. There is no need to take force to the ground, because you do not allow the opponent's force into your structure at all.

Huh? Is he saying he has a supernatural force field around his body? He either doesn't understand physics or he's denying it or both. An exercise ball is empty, but still has structure. Place an exercise ball on a scale and push down on the ball and the scale will indicate how much force you're exerting on the ball. The exercise ball will transfer the force from you to the scale (the ground). Kaufman seems to be writing that this does not happen with him.

He does contradict himself a bit sometimes... Of course you always take external force into your structure and down to the ground if you meet with your opponent's arm against arm. Even if someone just touch you very slightly you will need to support this this force with your own structure if you don't want the force to either push your hand away or make you lose balance. The only way to not allow the opponent's force into your own structure is by either go limp and disconnect your limb from the rest of the body or to not be there. But I don't see them do this. If you look at Chu, Nima or Kaufman they all use quite an amount of pressure against their opponents, or allow a big amount of pressure on them. So of course he is misrepresenting what he does.

A different way of looking at it.

Sam Chin Fan-siong,

that the center of the spherical surface at the point of contact with the opponent does not even have to be within your body—it can be anywhere as long as (a) your body is inside the extension of the spherical surface at the contact point and (b) the force you exert is perpendicularly outward from that surface.

.

He leaves out some obvious conclusions, purposefully or not , probably best not mentioned here

If you look at the diagram, the body itself still needs a center. Even if you want to evade a small amount of force, you need to "ding" yourself, or the center of the fulcrum steadily. It's the same way with Sam Chin and what they do. They use quite a lot of pressure against each other, they are not even "light" in their approach. If they don't have a center that goes straight down into the ground there will be nothing to pivot around. If you let pressure on your own body, you will always, always, use the ground to support your own movements. Otherwise, you would be swept away just as you had no lower body at all. This is just physics. (Now I only speak about the actual physical forces present that these people do apply against each other, and not other types of methods or ideals.)

[windwalker]

A different way of looking at it.

Sam Chin Fan-siong,

that the center of the spherical surface at the point of contact with the opponent does not even have to be within your body—it can be anywhere as long as (a) your body is inside the extension of the spherical surface at the contact point and (b) the force you exert is perpendicularly outward from that surface.

.

He leaves out some obvious conclusions, purposefully or not , probably best not mentioned here

If you look at the diagram, the body itself still needs a center. Even if you want to evade a small amount of force, you need to "ding" yourself, or the center of the fulcrum steadily. It's the same way with Sam Chin and what they do. They use quite a lot of pressure against each other, they are not even "light" in their approach. If they don't have a center that goes straight down into the ground there will be nothing to pivot around. If you let pressure on your own body, you will always, always, use the ground to support your own movements. Otherwise, you would be swept away just as you had no lower body at all. This is just physics. (Now I only speak about the actual physical forces present that these people do apply against each other, and not other types of methods or ideals.)

Always interesting.

Both Sam Chin, and Adam Minzer "could be wrong" have S-mantis in their backgrounds. Perhaps this is one of many types of influences in their methodologies


Que the long explanations and video clips

not

Thought some of the physics done by a teacher of physics PHD level in "his own inquiry"
Attempting to explain it to others using his background to do so might help
Illustrate or clarify some of the points presented here.

Huh? Is he saying he has a supernatural force field around his body?

Presented some thoughts on "wei qi" commonly referred to as "气场或气泡" "qi chong" "field of qi" or "qi bubble" might address some references to a "force field" .


Mentioned regarding the "chuckrowtaichi" link

"He leaves out some obvious conclusions, purposefully or not , probably best not mentioned here"

an interesting read.

A: When M Yao pushed and sparred with you, were you really trying to beat him?
C: Yes. As soon as I detected an opportunity, I would fa li, hoping to launch the old guy for once (chuckles). The folly of youth, I guess. As I launched my attack, M Yao would contract, leading me to feel as if I had crushed something really heavy. The moment I had this feeling, it was replaced by a feeling of that ‘thing’ having been blown away by the wind.

A: [Wang Xiangzhai’s disciple, now deceased] Ao Shi-peng once told me an anecdote that took place while China was in the thrall of ‘Qigong mania’ [in the 80s]. Ao asked M Yao about the ‘fa gong’ [external release of qi], and asked whether Yiquan could produce this kind of ability too.

At first, M Yao was reluctant to talk about this kind of thing, but eventually, seeing that Ao wasn’t going to drop it, sighed and raised his hand. Bear in mind that Ao and M Yao were separated by a dining table at this point.

M Yao lifted his hand and made a very small fa li motion towards Ao’s face. Ao felt as if a large mass of paper had hit his forehead, it scared him witless. Have you ever come across this ability?

C: M Yao was always reluctant to talk about this kind of thing, even in his books he denied it existed in Yiquan. His intent was not to lead Yiquan students astray.

https://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009 ... n-part-iv/

Everyone can make up their own minds.

The OP opening video clip, an expression of some one's thoughts regarding other's practices,
suggesting his own practice as part of a larger group of practices labeled "internal" was being given a bad name by what he called fake or fraudulent practices, demonstrations.

quite interesting in that some here have pointed out,
what he attempts to link his practice with my not be

"internal"

[robert]

The OP opening video clip, an expression of some one's thoughts regarding other's practices,
suggesting his own practice as part of a larger group of practices labeled "internal" was being given a bad name by what he called fake or fraudulent practices, demonstrations.

OK, I was thinking about examples he provided in the video which involved physical contact, with hopping and jumping in response to a push. Some people teach that.

Hopping around in Tai Chi class makes us all look foolish. Let’s acknowledge that upfront.

It almost seems like a confidence trick, doesn’t it? The teacher pushes one of their students backwards, and the student responds by jumping upwards, perhaps even bouncing two or three times as they retreat. It must be some kind of gimmick, outsiders say. A practical illusion, designed to make the teacher look strong…right? No other explanation makes sense…

More here -
https://shorelinetaichi.com/lessons/why-we-hop-in-tai-chi/

Not something I've been taught.

[windwalker]

More here -
https://shorelinetaichi.com/lessons/why-we-hop-in-tai-chi/

Not something I've been taught.

Why would anyone teach it, or have to..

This may help to understand what is often taken for granted, actually quite complex, developed over a long period of time.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMjBkfnZu50

With the many stepping drills in different styles of IMA,
what is shown may help to explain what is being trained,
why it's modified to achieve a desired skill set.

Why it takes so long....


As to the reactions mentioned in the OP's post.
The "mind/body" is attempting at all times to achieve and maintain inner and outer balance,
quite complex in its interactions to do so..

Once disrupted depending on how, can and will cause many reactions attempting to regain it.

Often questioned even by those experience the reactions they
may not understand often wondering why, and what they'er reacting to.

note: interesting enough, among the many different teachers all using similar methods, their students reactions strikingly similar.


Amusing at times, as those reacting to something they may not understand, ask others if they are "faking it" once they reach
a point in their training where they cause the same reactions in others.

[dspyrido]

In CST workshops I used to be that guy. Decades ago Mark Spence & host of other WC guys were my school bros. A few years ago I reconnected with some of my old buddies and also caught up with some of the WC community (some from Chi Sau club) to see how things were going. Due to CST's influence this seems to have moved to the forefront.

Anything seen in the video's is as Bhassler said - it's just applied leverage & normal physics. The only subtlety is in how the body is recruited and used. There's a few concepts like uprooting, angling around the presented limb to get to it's weaker leverage point, relaxing to ensure sensitivity/speed & engaging the core to connect the body (dantien if you feel like being IMA cool).

The WC application of it is to create openings to enable controlling & striking through. Others outside of WC also use this level of body recruitment in qinna which is far more exciting when combined with striking.

As for the later bouncy nonsense stuff I briefly saw in the videos - Huang Sheng Shyan has been discussed before. It's nonsense from a martial arts perspective as is all staged.

[LaoDan]

From a TJQ perspective, I use the example and practice of rapidly switching from one leg/foot to the other to illustrate that “rooting”/stability (ground path…) and agility (mobility…) are not mutually exclusive. One can both root and maintain one’s agility as long as they do not “brace” into the ground.

I do not view it as having a “floating” root, but rather a root that is not bracing into/against the ground. When I demonstrate this I always have one or the other foot contacting the ground and never lose my “root” even when rapidly switching the root from one foot to the other. It looks to me like the WC examples are similar. I think that calling it a “floating center” is misleading and an inaccurate explanation of what is happening.

[Quigga]

Windwalker, very interesting, thank you.

Just leaving this here:

[Doc Stier]

The Wei Qi is a protective energy field which emanates from the body, guarding it from external pathogens, emotional, climatic, and electro-magnetic invasion.

When it is healthy, your Wei Qi selectively allows specific energies into your field.

This protective Wei Qi barrier is somewhat similar to the Western concept of the Aura, however the Daoist Wei Qi is very different in emphasis, cultivation, and how it is used.

https://fiveseasonsmedicine.com/whats-p ... -build-it/

Interesting isn't it?

Do you think wei qi can be used to strike someone? Do you think it can be used to throw them to the ground? Can it be used to fight? Do you think that is what is being demonstrated by these wing chun guys?

The answers to your questions would be a definite NO for me. Wei-chi is an informative expression of intrinsic energy, not an external expression of physical technique. Wei-chi simply informs us that we need to eat, sleep, add or remove layers of clothing to suit the ambient temperature, avoid immediate sources of potential danger or possible injury, and so forth. To suggest that it is anything more than this is just imaginative mental conjecture, imo.

[Quigga]

Doc, what you're describing would be the classical TCM view of things IMO.

My question would be how does the Wei Qi tell you all those things? Information always needs a substance as a medium to carry it

[windwalker]

Traditional Chinese Medicine the wei qi field is known to have a boundary that extends past the skin and its purpose is to offer protection.

https://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms ... p?id=32831

Seems like there's some confusion.

"Wei qi" As noted is part of or makes up what is commonly referred to as "qi chong" or field of qi.

How this is used or not in some practices depends on the practice.
The group in Beijing commonly used this term in speaking about what was being affected...

Use the term "qi chong" "field of qi, or qi bubble" with those from the culture
using other terminology to explain things in a different way for others who are not.

.

[wayne hansen]

Wei chi is just the protective layer of meridians in western terms we could call it the constitution
This is what iron bell cover is
It is what wim hoff developers with his cold water therapy
It has little to do with the hippy hoppy crap
Huang has a great exercise to work on anti hip hop
It is called hop like a sparrow
The two practitioners stand within hitting distance
The recipient does not protect himself in any way
The attacker jumps in and deliveres an explosive double palm slap to his partners chest as strong as he can
The receiver allows the slap to make him fly back at which point he grounds himself
The pain is heavy at the point of contact but gone on landing
The point is total relaxation
Many due to fear and lack of faith many can't relax so feel in the pain fully
This gives them a desire to hop away not from real force but from the expectation of force
They become the exponents of hip hop
I remember having a student who had done a lot of aikido
I could launch him great distances with any thing I did
It saddened me greatly when he left because he made any demo great without any input from me
I just let him attack neutralised him did my response and he flew