the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

https://fb.watch/663D068IMM/

Jkd guy on the right turns up to this guys wing chun class and starts to preach…
Think we’ve all seen this kind of thing at sometime, probably wishing this would happen

You order, you pay. Lesson learned.

The teacher dude did try to keep his calm for as long as he could...

edededed wrote:The teacher dude did try to keep his calm for as long as he could...

Yes, the Wing Chun teacher was being polite asking "You want me to go easy?" The JKD guy started cussing and brought his head towards him. Reminds me of Charlie Zelenoff.

JKD guy does a not bad pendulum step to kick. Wing Chun guy does Stockton Slap, head control to throw—no trapping (lop sau).

A Paper Tiger in the striped shirt, with plenty of mouth-fu, but apparently very little actual kungfu. Never let your mouth make promises which your body can't keep. Word!

Guys like that are idiots and are generally characteristed by an outstanding lack of self-awareness.

You don't do yourself any favors. You should be visiting a school to learn so listening is more important than talking. You already know what you know, but you don't know what you don't know.

Its not lost on me that when the altercation started the Wing Chun was nowhere to be seen. The idea that that we might be trying to install movement the body just doesn't see as natural is worthy of deep thought no matter the amount of repetition. That applies to all martial arts not just this one.

All real world violence is unpleasant, but can always be looked at dispationately as a learning experience. It's when theory hits reality. There's quite a lot going on in this clip to learn from and ponder -

what happens when you're an annoying little shit
better ways to communicate
respecting your elders in martial arts
it ends up on the ground in seconds.
Would ground skills have made a difference? (JKD guy appears to go for some wrestling/BJJ positions - did he have rudamentary skills?)
Is that still Wing Chun?

I get the whole real world violence is unpleasant. What I was thinking was to what extent has martial arts (in particular CMA) evolved to look aesthetically pleasing at the expense of practicality. All these fine motor movements that go out the window the moment the shit hits the fan.

the simplest example in this clip is the preference to swing a punch versus a nice looking straight punch. and yet i'll bet that straight punch was trained a lot.

To generalise: As soon as a martial arts style gets a name it becomes a brand. Brands exist to make money or generate social credit. To succeed it has to be different to other brands, so we have artificial stylists differences “in Xingyi we do this…” “in wing chun we do this….”. The more unique and different we can make it the stronger the brand.

Then when reality comes knocking we do something different. Reality does not care about brands. Only humans do.

AJG wrote:I get the whole real world violence is unpleasant. What I was thinking was to what extent has martial arts (in particular CMA) evolved to look aesthetically pleasing at the expense of practicality. All these fine motor movements that go out the window the moment the shit hits the fan.

the simplest example in this clip is the preference to swing a punch versus a nice looking straight punch. and yet i'll bet that straight punch was trained a lot.

All learning is to greater or lesser degrees both state and context dependent. If you want your kung fu wizardry to be available in a "shit hits the fan" situation, you have to figure out how to bridge the context between your training environment and the types of situations you expect to use it in.

The argument that fine motor skills automatically go out the window under stress/adrenaline is silly. There are all kinds of sports figures who perform even better under stress and adrenaline. There are lots of other examples, but those are widely available for anyone to see. Once again, you have to figure out how to train for it.

GrahamB wrote:To generalise: As soon as a martial arts style gets a name it becomes a brand. Brands exist to make money or generate social credit. To succeed it has to be different to other brands, so we have artificial stylists differences “in Xingyi we do this…” “in wing chun we do this….”. The more unique and different we can make it the stronger the brand.

Then when reality comes knocking we do something different. Reality does not care about brands. Only humans do.

Good thing we have social media available to us now, where all those sort of secondary motivations are totally absent, and the only goal is verifiable, empirical truth...

AJG wrote:
Its not lost on me that when the altercation started the Wing Chun was nowhere to be seen. The idea that that we might be trying to install movement the body just doesn't see as natural is worthy of deep thought no matter the amount of repetition. That applies to all martial arts not just this one.

"the Wing Chun was nowhere to be seen"

doesn't have to be "seen"
does have to "work"

Seems like the instructor would've used this as a "teaching" moment
guess not

Examples of traditional MA that "work"

historical combative competitions


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy0-Dt9mPiI

Adaptations to historical combative use


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDva0RFcDUs&t=93s

In China, Fairbairn studied and became proficient in Baguazhang under the instruction of Tsai Ching Tung (Cui Zhendong, Bagua student of Yin Fu), who was employed at the Imperial Palace, Beijing, as the instructor to the Retainers of the late Empress Dowager.
Fairbairn later made a dedication in his book
All In Fighting/The Fairbairn Method (1942) to Cui Zhendong calling him a man of "terrifying prowess."

http://baguakungfu.com/2017/07/william- ... aguazhang/

Hahaha! So, the Million Dollar question which always begs to be answered is this. Why is there an undeniable gap between form and function for so many martial artists of every style or system, since none of these fighting methods would have been preserved and perpetuated until now if they hadn't proven to be effective for at least a few practitioners in all previous generations?

I suggest that the gap is not necessarily the fault of the style's techniques or combat strategies, and is not necessarily due to the physical training or performance capability of any individual practitioner, but instead is the result of a failure to properly train the mind in order to reprogram the default mental/emotional responses and the default physical reactions in realtime fight scenarios when facing an aggressive, and perhaps angry, adversary who attacks with speed, power, and the intention to cause serious bodily harm or death.

Thus, without proper mind training, most fighters will revert to their lowest level of live combat efficiency prior to any martial art studies and training, as is clearly seen in most realtime fight videos, where only the most rudimentary techniques and skills are employed. Whatever was previously learned and practiced, regardless of style or system, is oftentimes nowhere to be seen in fighting on the street or in the pub.

The same thing usually occurs in competition bouts, where most fighters,
but not all, look like they train at the same MMA gym, using the same basic strikes, kicks, takedowns, throws, and grappling methods, devoid of any specific stylistic expression or any of the more sophisticated signature techniques of the styles they practiced prior to entering the ring.

AJG wrote:Its not lost on me that when the altercation started the Wing Chun was nowhere to be seen. The idea that that we might be trying to install movement the body just doesn't see as natural is worthy of deep thought no matter the amount of repetition. That applies to all martial arts not just this one.

Yes at 5:34, Rahsun Herkul says he's been doing Wing Chun for over 40 years with Phil Redmond (William Cheung line):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydJDy4N ... 5k&t=5m34s

AJG wrote:I get the whole real world violence is unpleasant. What I was thinking was to what extent has martial arts (in particular CMA) evolved to look aesthetically pleasing at the expense of practicality. All these fine motor movements that go out the window the moment the shit hits the fan.

the simplest example in this clip is the preference to swing a punch versus a nice looking straight punch. and yet i'll bet that straight punch was trained a lot.

After the slap to the ear at 2:33, Rahsun attempts to grab/trap twice but fails (looking at the frames)...which opens him to counters:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mosz2Pj0WA&t=2m33s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ-Y7DPzPvk

The mind training mention in Doc Stiers response is interesting. Without really knowing any more detail I'm guessing it relates to pressure testing of techniques through sparring or similar activities. But there are lots of examples where people spar a lot and to Doc's point only exhibit the most rudimentary of techniques which then raises the question of styles if that is the outcome you are generally going to get regardless. Now don't get me wrong I've nothing against rudimentary techniques that work but I do question practicing technique that the subconscious mind doesn't necessarily want to accept for one reason or another. To be honest the movement by wing chun was probably smoother and more dynamic that had he done wing chun. And we all fall over Marvin, its probably because we have two legs and not four.

I do recall a post long ago by Chris McKinley on this. I think he called it contextualisation or something like that and he proposed an approach to helping ingrain the movements one wanted which i vaguely remember being interesting. Btw what happened to that guy (i think he was really into neuroscience or something) ? He seemed to have a lot to contribute to discussions.

BruceP, aka Shooter, wrote a bunch about it back in the day. It's definitely worth the read if you can make the search feature work and want to take the time to read through the threads.