Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

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Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:29 am

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Jun 14, 2021

Yang 108 form detailed instruction: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/d2306ayang...
This official #ymaa #yangtaichi form was learned by #dryangjwingming as a teenager in #taiwan with Grandmaster Kao, Tao (高濤) whose teacher was Yue, Huanzhi (樂奐之), an indoor disciple of Yang, Chengfu (楊澄甫). This form has martial applications intact and was preserved in its "old" sequence, slightly different than the popularized #yangfamily form. #yangchengfu and #yangbanhou taught a full curriculum of #taijiquan with martial aspects, pushing hands, weapons and sparring, but these were hidden, not taught openly, during Japanese occupation and then continued through early communist days. Only after the Chinese cultural revolution ended in the 1970s did these arts slowly get traced back to their original full fighting potential and depth.
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The "old Yang" form was created in China in the 1800s and brought to Taiwan where it was preserved. The Yang family form continued to evolve after that. There was a group of indoor students in the early 1900s, very secretive because of the communists. Yue, Huanzhi (樂奐之) was recommended as indoor disciple by another, Mr. Dong, Yingjie (董英傑) a famous master in China, even in newspapers for some fights and other qi master events. There were many disciples who studied but are not lineage holders or listed in the Yang family tree.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGaoAMjEh8g
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Bao on Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:00 am

There’s no difference between this and what he normally does. I have never been a big fan of YJM’s Tai Chi infused White Crane & Qigong (yes, I really meant that it’s Tai Chi that has been infused into White Crane and Qigong and not the opposite around).

When someone has reached a certain fame and has big claim, there is all the more reason to look closely and to be critical. Remember that this person has practiced At least 40 years and says that you should practice Tai Chi at least 2 hours every day.

First, breath should follow the movements naturally, and not be forced or controlled into a pattern. Otherwise this will only lead to tense breath and an unbalanced body.

Second, the movements of the limbs should always be engaged by the center.

Third...
Last edited by Bao on Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:05 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:16 pm

I agree pretty pore quality
Breaks principles all over the place
As soon as someone says old yang buyer beware
Yet to see much old yang that is as good as cheng fu,s stuff
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Formosa Neijia on Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:47 pm

Not my cup of tea at all especially his hand work but mixing Yang style with white crane improves the taiji in nearly every way. Combining the two in push hands for example has led to more push hands champions than any other branch in Taiwan. Yang is simply too wimpy as done by most people and the crane gives it some needed backbone. YJM has produced a lot of martial stuff as a result, far more than anyone else i can think of.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Bao on Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:36 pm

mixing Yang style with white crane improves the taiji in nearly every way.


First time I heard someone saying so...
...It's a sort of opinion I guess...

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Yang is simply too wimpy as done by most people


Don't think anyone here would disagree.

and the crane gives it some needed backbone.


Compensating bad Tai Chi or lack of understanding by adding hard elements from other styles makes sense for some people I guess. Usually for people who lack real understanding of tai chi. However, the Tai Chi will still suck and the understanding will still lack regardless what you try to shovel into bad tai chi.

IMHO, it would be better to find what you think you lack within the art by finding a good teacher who can teach you the real deal. Mixing shit is just the lazy way out which shows that the person lacks real passion for the art. Better to throw it all away and study something easier.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby nicklinjm on Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:50 pm

Think it's pretty misleading for Yang Jwing-ming to continue calling what he does 'Old Yang' as what he does is not Yang Jianhou's Middle Frame (zhongjia) or Yang Shaohou's small frame (xiaojia) - it is just a stylised version of Yue Huanzhi's interpretation of what he learned from Dong Yingjie (i.e. at the end of the day it's still from Yang Chengfu).

Not going to comment on his skill level as have never met the guy.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:53 pm

My teacher had a name for those that try to bolster bad tai chi with hard style
Half assed hard stylists
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Formosa Neijia on Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:49 pm

Bao wrote:Compensating bad Tai Chi or lack of understanding by adding hard elements from other styles makes sense for some people I guess. Usually for people who lack real understanding of tai chi. However, the Tai Chi will still suck and the understanding will still lack regardless what you try to shovel into bad tai chi.


Ahh, RSF please never change. I miss the good 'ole days with naked passive aggressiveness like this. Thanks to Bao for retaining the old spirit. I never got around to studying the taiji/crane styles but again, the fruit speaks for itself. You can do things like the fast form or study Chen style to find a harder edge to your taiji and that's legit but so is doing two styles that are complimentary as white crane and taiji are. Now again, YJM wouldn't be my top choice for this but I think what he's doing is legit even if his form is a bit cringe (and it is). :-\

wayne hansen wrote:My teacher had a name for those that try to bolster bad tai chi with hard style
Half assed hard stylists

Excuse me, but don't you do Huang Sheng-shyan's style? What do you think the top taiji/crane hybrid is?
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Bao on Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:23 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:
Bao wrote:Compensating bad Tai Chi or lack of understanding by adding hard elements from other styles makes sense for some people I guess. Usually for people who lack real understanding of tai chi. However, the Tai Chi will still suck and the understanding will still lack regardless what you try to shovel into bad tai chi.


Ahh, RSF please never change. I miss the good 'ole days with naked passive aggressiveness like this. Thanks to Bao for retaining the old spirit.


If you feel butt hurt by hearing the truth, I’ll just call you a big woosy. Just sayin’ so you know that I didn’t mean to be passive aggressive. ;D

You can do things like the fast form or study Chen style to find a harder edge to your taiji


Practicing solo shit harder or faster that “looks” more combative won’t compensate lack of sparring and pressure testing. You look at the problem with most tai chi folks from the wrong perspective. Painting stripes on a cat won’t make it a tiger.

wayne hansen wrote:My teacher had a name for those that try to bolster bad tai chi with hard style
Half assed hard stylists


Good name. 8-)
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Jul 01, 2021 10:49 pm

No I have never trained in Huangs style
I do use his pushing sets and 5 exercises and his short double ended pole
However I have never trained his system especially his crane
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Giles on Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:17 am

Call me unoriginal, but I’ll definitely go with Bao and Wayne here. Today I find the whole idea of giving your tai chi ‘a harder edge’ (assuming you do some kind of Yang, Wu or Hao or whatever style) by importing elements of Chen style or some other seemingly more martial style to be very off-track.* With all respect to the various branches of Chen style, of course. Sure, certain branches/schools of Yang tai chi may be close to irredeemable nowadays. But if as a learner you want your Y/W/H tai chi to flower, then you need good partners who some of the time, in a considered way, will make life increasingly hard for you. Who will present you with ‘problems’, attacks, that come with increasing strength and/or speed and/or skill and it’s your job to keep relaxing, keep accepting and hence to transform. Without wiggling out, without leaning, without collapsing, all of which will paint you into a corner in both the short and long term. The ‘hard edge’ will start to grow from this kind of relaxation, and when it manifests it can sometimes surprise you as much as it surprises the other person. Because it comes from a clear mind focus while the body remains soft. Or ‘soft’, however you view this term.

By the by, I don’t hear Bao being ‘passive aggressive’ here. Actually he’s pretty up-front in his criticism of what he sees as ‘bad tai chi’ and a lazy approach, without bad-mouthing anybody personally. So one can disagree or take offense if so inclined, but I think ‘passive aggressiveness’ would be something quite different.

And as regards breathing in the form, I was going to post about that but didn’t get round to it in time. Does anybody here practice a form where the movements are matched by a fixed breathing pattern? In some kinds of qigong, sure, but in tai chi chuan? I mean, when you practice your form more slowly or faster, what happens then? Do you try to slow down your inhales/exhales radically if you do the form much slower, or speed them as the form gets faster, or in applications? That’s pretty obviously creating strain and seems downright unhealthy. Also goes against all I’ve learned from various good teachers and my own experience. But if I’m missing a valuable and deep approach, then I’m open to feedback...
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* Gaining experience through cross-training in other styles is something else. The bits of training I've done in stuff like wing chun, MMA and boxing, or with weapons, have been very useful for reinforcing the basic will and ability to go straight in to the target when the moment is right (for myself as a timid middle-class boy), but for me that was ultimately more about extra training for the mind than for the body. For instance, the steely mind can be BIG in cuddly old CMC style ;) 8-) , you just have to let it grow and find its way.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Steve James on Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:15 am

I don't pay much attention to the "old" v "new" v "YCF" v "YSC" issues. It's impossible to have universal agreement on either the terminology or the expression. And, someone will always say that there are things that can't be seen, or that the critic can't see.

YJM says he learned Old Yang from somebody. I met YJM decades ago, but I don't recall him ever saying he was teaching Old Yang; it was just Yang style. Or, I should say, his version of Yang style. There were, and are, many versions of Yang style, though. I have to admit that I have been most interested in the differences in application of the basic form. However, such applications could be incorporated into any version.

Anyway, to me, the most interesting aspect of YJM's tjq was his qinna. His major thing, ime, was to show how every form movement was also effective qinna. (Yah, I know; everybody knows this, still). Yep, originally, YJM was a Shaolin-based white crane guy, an art which specializes in qinna. So, ok, criticize him on that point. Yet, I learned something just by looking at the form from a different perspective.

Afa mixing styles, I think one's expression is a product of all the things one has learned and been.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Bao on Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:11 am

Giles wrote: it’s your job to keep relaxing, keep accepting and hence to transform. Without wiggling out, without leaning, without collapsing, all of which will paint you into a corner in both the short and long term. The ‘hard edge’ will start to grow from this kind of relaxation, and when it manifests it can sometimes surprise you as much as it surprises the other person. Because it comes from a clear mind focus while the body remains soft. Or ‘soft’, however you view this term.


Agreed. Ya Lixuan, one of Yang Chengfu's top disciples, he was the coach for Beijing Sanda team. He let his Tai chi students fight in tournaments. I remember that he spoke about that when you competed or do free sparring, you should always keep on relaxing and never give up your Tai Chi. He meant that you need to accept loosing and gradually develop your skill. He also entered competitions. He often won, but sometimes he lost to better fighters, just like anyone else. He saw nothing strange in losing and he always continued to develop his own and his students fighting skills. So he had a pretty straight forward approach without compromising the art. Also remember that Li was one of those who emphasized deep, full relaxation and was maybe the one except CMC who really took “song” to the extreme. He believed in a practical functionality and usefulness of this concept.

Giles wrote:By the by, I don’t hear Bao being ‘passive aggressive’ here


Thank you. I can understand Formosa Neijia feeling attacked. I didn't mean to attack anyone and I could have expressed myself better. So I will take responsibility for how I write. It was a bit unnecessary, even though he himself was slightly provocative. But I don't think he meant what he wrote as a general attack on Yang practitioners. It's always hard to discuss behind a screen when you don't see each other. I have nothing against any member of this board.

Giles wrote:Does anybody here practice a form where the movements are matched by a fixed breathing pattern? In some kinds of qigong, sure, but in tai chi chuan? I mean, when you practice your form more slowly or faster, what happens then? Do you try to slow down your inhales/exhales radically if you do the form much slower, or speed them as the form gets faster, or in applications? That’s pretty obviously creating strain and seems downright unhealthy. Also goes against all I’ve learned from various good teachers and my own experience.


The funny thing is that YJM has promoted that the best speed is when it takes 60 minutes to do the whole long form. Still he claims that you should coordinate the breath with the movements. I couldn't do this without forcing the length of breathing in and out. My breath would become tense and my chest would feel uncomfortable. Unhealthy is a good way to put it. But they have lots of forced, heavy breathing drills in White Crane, so I guess he brings his theories both from White Crane and Qigong. I've heard several people saying that having strokes is common amongst white crane practitioner. It could just be a myth and I don't know how any white crane practitioner died. But it's interesting that many see forced breathing as unhealthy and dangerous in the long run.

I wrote about breathing in Tai Chi just recently on my blog. One of my points there, which I think is worth repeating, is that one of the keywords in Tai Chi is "ziran", or "natural". Forcing or trying to fix the breath in patterns goes against what is natural for your own body, so it really goes against one of the core principles in all Tai Chi. When the mind and body is calm and relaxed, the breath will become deep and full and it will take care of itself.

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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:27 am

Giles wrote:And as regards breathing in the form, I was going to post about that but didn’t get round to it in time. Does anybody here practice a form where the movements are matched by a fixed breathing pattern? In some kinds of qigong, sure, but in tai chi chuan? I mean, when you practice your form more slowly or faster, what happens then? Do you try to slow down your inhales/exhales radically if you do the form much slower, or speed them as the form gets faster, or in applications? That’s pretty obviously creating strain and seems downright unhealthy. Also goes against all I’ve learned from various good teachers and my own experience. But if I’m missing a valuable and deep approach, then I’m open to feedback...


I've heard folks describe their formula for syncing the breath to the form but that doesn't seem productive to me. Controlling the breathing to match the movements is something I do in qigong. When it comes to the form, I don't control my breath, I become passive and let my body breathe for me.

And I don't mean lungs and diaphragm and that's it, I mean, the breathing you do with your arms and legs and waist, the whole body.

That's the deepest practice I'm personally capable of understanding.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Taste of Death on Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:55 am

Bao wrote:I wrote about breathing in Tai Chi just recently on my blog. One of my points there, which I think is worth repeating, is that one of the keywords in Tai Chi is "ziran", or "natural". Forcing or trying to fix the breath in patterns goes against what is natural for your own body, so it really goes against one of the core principles in all Tai Chi. When the mind and body is calm and relaxed, the breath will become deep and full and it will take care of itself.


Sam Tam once said when asked about martial breathing, "When you reach for the salt shaker at the dinner table, do you breathe in or out?"
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