Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:49 am

The CLF school started in Guangzhou, an urban location full of factories, based on the leisure time and money created by a booming economy. Western powers were all invested heavily at this point as well.

I think the 'sick man of Asia' thing is a reference to how the Chinese were bullied and repeatedly defeated by foreign powers - British, US, Russian, and others throughout the 19th century, having to give repeated concessions - including Hong Kong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Asia

Benjamin Judkins book on Wing Chun history is a great reference for all this stuff.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Bao on Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:52 am

Steve James wrote: The "weak man of Asia" idea must have come from somewhere, though, and could have been a myth --promoted by the colonizers.


Most of the racist Chinese negative stereotypes and caricatures comes from the end of the Gold Rush. When most of the gold was gone, the poverty raised and Chinese as well as Irishmen were made scapegoats for all sorts of problems in the society and for stealing the jobs.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:52 am

Steve James wrote:I'm still interested in the beginnings of large group practice in parks and the reasons for it.


There's nothing communism likes more than everybody out in the park doing exactly the same thing in the same way with no trace of individuality ;D
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Steve James on Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:18 am

Yeah, the "sick man of Asia" idea clearly had to do with its lack of success against foreign powers. Farmers would be in pretty good shape; but, then again, poverty and opium addiction were factors. Well, Chinese laborers in the gold mines and railroads were about as tough as they come. The general idea of the "weak" Chinese is a stereotype --which are often, if not usually, the opposite of reality. ;)

Yep, conformity is a good reason. [Edit: the demand for conformity is a reasonable explanation. At least, there seems to be a chronological relation between the practice and the communist party].
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jul 04, 2021 11:46 am

Let's also remember that the Chinese Communists were looking to the USSR for inspiration - and there was already this idea of Soviet health responsibility, where it is your duty as a good citizen to be healthy.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Bhassler on Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:37 am

Formosa Neijia wrote:It should be noted that the crane jibengong is harsh and the jin patterns along with breathing are taught FIRST which solves many of the problems that taiji has. Taiji is weak in basics and application and teaches jin patterns way too late in the training to do any good. Before people tell me about some one or two teachers somewhere that this doesn't apply to, note that it does apply to 99.9%. The exception to the rule doesn't set the standard.


Calling a zebra a striped horse doesn't make it one, even if everyone does it. You can take the approach that what's popular is true, or you can take the approach that what's commonly taught is not really taijiquan. Neither is ethically right or wrong, but imposing one's view on others rarely works well.

Formosa Neijia wrote:A much more interesting question would be where does the crane push/sticky hands material come from? I've never heard any explanation of that. Here's feeding crane's version and they are really good at applying this material. A member of the board got his arm broken by one of them in a sparring match a few years ago so again, the proof is in the pudding, not the ingredients.


Considering that Feeding Crane is largely constructed on a set of progressive drills, it's not surprising that they would have one or more that looks like stuff found in other systems. That doesn't mean it has to come "from" anywhere other than within the system itself, although it wouldn't be hard to see it and adopt it. That's likely a lot of how systems evolve, anyways-- but that's just the shape of the drill. It the system is good (which Feeding Crane is), it's own approach will devour the new material and make it it's own thing.

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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Formosa Neijia on Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:53 pm

Bhassler wrote:
Formosa Neijia wrote:It should be noted that the crane jibengong is harsh and the jin patterns along with breathing are taught FIRST which solves many of the problems that taiji has. Taiji is weak in basics and application and teaches jin patterns way too late in the training to do any good. Before people tell me about some one or two teachers somewhere that this doesn't apply to, note that it does apply to 99.9%. The exception to the rule doesn't set the standard.


Calling a zebra a striped horse doesn't make it one, even if everyone does it. You can take the approach that what's popular is true, or you can take the approach that what's commonly taught is not really taijiquan. Neither is ethically right or wrong, but imposing one's view on others rarely works well.


I'm not really sure what your point is. I was responding to the idea that YJM's taiji is somehow "infected" with white crane.

So far I haven't seen the following addressed:
1. what is it supposedly about white crane shenfa that just ruins taiji shenfa?
This gets said like it's axiomatic but I've haven't heard a clear explanation other than "it's different so it must be bad." Does doing the water hands from feeding crane render you unable to do brush knee? Does any other crane technique interfere with "opening taiji"? This seems to enhance it:

2. does having one shenfa method address everything?
In kali, we have one shenfa for single stick and sword because you have to adopt a bladed posture to maximize the reach of the weapon. With knife and stick you adopt a 45 degree posture like xingyi's santi because you need the back hand to be able to reach forward more. Close in knife and double stick are often done with the hips more straight forward because the back hand is heavily involved. You have to be adept at all three to be really good. You can't just pick one or you'll be vulnerable to the other ranges. It's like Rhonda Rousey being awesome at judo till people figured out she couldn't box. Being well-rounded means finding the best stuff to plug the holes in your game, not trying to figure out how judo should be used to punch someone.
3. how is it that a different way of shenfa is only ever a negative instead of a positive? What some call a conflict others would call a supplement.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Bao on Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:42 pm

Thank you for explaining your concerns in more detail. 8-)

Formosa Neijia wrote:So far I haven't seen the following addressed:
1. what is it supposedly about white crane shenfa that just ruins taiji shenfa?
This gets said like it's axiomatic but I've haven't heard a clear explanation other than "it's different so it must be bad."


Maybe we went a bit off track in the start of the discussion. I don’t think his Tai Chi is particularly good by any standard. In fact, I never said that his tai chi was infected by Tai Chi. You said that his white crane gave his Tai Chi backbone. I said that he had infused Tai Chi into his white crane, which is something else. What I said what he does is basically white crane and not Tai Chi. Or white crane disguised as Tai Chi. This is something very different from Huang that you were referring to, as Huang was someone who understood and could embrace the spirit of Tai Chi.

If YJM’s tai chi was great, I wouldn’t care if he added stuff to it. If or how his tai chi would be sort of infected by White Crane is not the main problem. His Tai Chi is not good, period. He started to learn tai chi from his white crane teacher who mainly focused on white crane. So what he studied was someone’s secondary art. I still have the first edition of YJM’s first tai chi book, Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan. His understanding was quite rudimentary back then and he had not very good understanding of how Tai Chi should be used as a martial art. And when you see how he performs his tai chi today it’s pretty much the same, which makes me wonder how much he has actually developed since then.

3. how is it that a different way of shenfa is only ever a negative instead of a positive?


It’s not always negative. There are differences in tai chi styles and lineages. There’s no absolute method. Chen stylists believe Yang stylists do things bad, Yang stylists look down on Chen stylists. Many say that CMC is too limp and many complains on William Chen’s raised elbows. Everyone does something wrong in the eyes of others. The question is if it’s good or not.

What some call a conflict others would call a supplement.


Maybe.

My Shenfa is not very strict to every “rule”. Some people would like what I did, others would say that I did things wrong. I use my spine more than the average player. I use my waist, ribs and scapula to store movement/energy/jin (or whatever) more than the average tai chi stylist. And in general, I focus more on internal movement than on how it “looks”. And no, I haven’t imported anything from other styles, I learned everything I do in my tai chi from tai chi teachers. So there’s no conflict or supplement. But it’s different from the general standards. If something is functional or obstructive would be of mine concern if I saw something different. How close to tai chi standards something is, well this is of less concern.

Does any other crane technique interfere with "opening taiji"? This seems to enhance it:


His frame seems strong, but it would be even better if he rooted himself and used this to stabilize himself all the way from the ground, He seems to have good qualities, though here at least, his legs lacks stability. Also, meeting force directly is not a very good strategy by any tai chi standard.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby windwalker on Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:48 pm

Questions asked, an opinion offered,.


Formosa Neijia wrote:
So far I haven't seen the following addressed:


1. what is it supposedly about white crane shenfa that just ruins taiji shenfa?
This gets said like it's axiomatic but I've haven't heard a clear explanation other than "it's different so it must be bad." Does doing the water hands from feeding crane render you unable to do brush knee? Does any other crane technique interfere with "opening taiji"? This seems to enhance it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QrW1cQUnFI

You do understand that one can practice taiji, and even teach it as many do..
Does not mean they know taiji.

In the clip presented watch the back.
A different method than advocated / used for most Taiji methods.

As good or bad, depends.

Depends, ones level and focus of practice.
If some can not see, or do not feel, there is a difference.
what would be the point of trying to change an "opinion". ?


2. does having one shenfa method address everything?

It means in mastering it, one should come to an understanding of how to address things using the method as practiced
essentially arriving at no method. "Mastery"


In kali, we have one shenfa for single stick and sword because you have to adopt a bladed posture to maximize the reach of the weapon. With knife and stick you adopt a 45 degree posture like xingyi's santi because you need the back hand to be able to reach forward more. Close in knife and double stick are often done with the hips more straight forward because the back hand is heavily involved. You have to be adept at all three to be really good. You can't just pick one or you'll be vulnerable to the other ranges. It's like Rhonda Rousey being awesome at judo till people figured out she couldn't box. Being well-rounded means finding the best stuff to plug the holes in your game, not trying to figure out how judo should be used to punch someone.
3. how is it that a different way of shenfa is only ever a negative instead of a positive? What some call a conflict others would call a supplement.


If one claims to have mastered a "method" and clearly does not use it or can not use it in different situations,
indicates the person has not really mastered the method.

Not an issue as long as they don't claim to represent or have mastered it, as some are held up to be, in most cases self promoted.
Historically this was never the way.

If one claims to be a good fighter, the method used is less important, not claiming to be representative of any method.
Their stylistic approach to things reflective, based on the methods they feel most comfortable with.

They'er portrayed as being good fighters.
Not representative of a method, or claiming to be a master of this or that.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby windwalker on Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:09 pm

Bao wrote:Maybe we went a bit off track in the start of the discussion. I don’t think his Tai Chi is particularly good by any standard. In fact, I never said that his tai chi was infected by Tai Chi. You said that his white crane gave his Tai Chi backbone.

I said that he had infused Tai Chi into his white crane, which is something else.

What I said what he does is basically white crane and not Tai Chi. Or white crane disguised as Tai Chi.

This is something very different from Huang that you were referring to, as Huang was someone who understood and could embrace the spirit of Tai Chi.



An interesting perspective.

Agree.

yes, very different from infusing something into taiji....



Awhile back in Taiwan, for those I met even with some of my own changes, "discontinued"
All commented on my "taiji" even though it didn't reflect any of the major family styles
they considered and recognized it as Taiji.

My teacher in China, had a back ground in Bagua.
One time mentioned he would no longer refer to his style as "yang" style
feeling he made changes that no longer reflected the "yang" family style.

Out of respect for the family..

He referred to his method simply as

"taiji"

some of his work in his 60s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o21lg4PG3jM
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:27 pm

YMJ white crane is a totally different type to Huangs
When Huang met CMC Cheng said he already had tai chi Shen fa from his Crane
Especially in pushing so he only had to learn the forms
At the end of his life Huang was talking about moving to NZ and just teaching Crane
I had the pleasure of training with Edgar Sulite who had learnt many types of FMA the Shen fa was pretty much the same through all
The techniques and tactics changed quite a bit
Edgar was also a Tai chi And Hsing I practitioner and didn’t see any difference in how he practiced them
He did a lot of standing exercises
I am not sure which of his books it is but there is a photo of me teaching him Huangs 5 exercises with Tony Diego,Topher Rickets,Rey Galang and Ray Floro looking on
He loved the set and it’s logic
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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