Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:47 am

Today I find the whole idea of giving your tai chi ‘a harder edge’ (assuming you do some kind of Yang, Wu or Hao or whatever style) by importing elements of Chen style or some other seemingly more martial style to be very off-track.* With all respect to the various branches of Chen style, of course. Sure, certain branches/schools of Yang tai chi may be close to irredeemable nowadays



Even the direct "yang" family members had stylistic differences noted that may not be viewed as representative of "yang's" style taiji as it's known today.


With out "usage" based observations any interpretation could be said to be valid as long as it does not claim to represent a known family style's methodology.

One reason the claims of secret or lost transmissions, methodologies suddenly revealed may be suspect...

example of usage based application analysis


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbWBvTKo3dI&t=28s
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Giles on Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:35 am

Taste of Death wrote:Sam Tam once said when asked about martial breathing, "When you reach for the salt shaker at the dinner table, do you breathe in or out?"


Very nice quote.
And if someone unexpectedly throws the salt shaker to you and you catch it instinctively, you won't even have time to breathe 'extra' at all. You'll probably perform best in that moment if you just carry on breathing the way you did a second before and don't suddenly hold your breath as you hurl it back in one smooth motion to the initiator. Take that!!! ;D
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Giles on Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:49 am

windwalker wrote:With out "usage" based observations any interpretation could be said to be valid as long as it does not claim to represent a known family style's methodology.

One reason the claims of secret or lost transmissions, methodologies suddenly revealed may be suspect...

example of usage based application analysis


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbWBvTKo3dI&t=28s


Not quite sure if you present this video as an example of "suspect claims of secret or lost transmissions", but if you are, I would tend to agree - I don't find it particularly convincing as an example of 'understanding Yang Chen Fu'. This guy isn't terrible but if this is the 'secret' of YCF's skill then the 'golden age' of tai chi must have been pretty dismal. Funnily, at the moments where he aims to demonstrate that a body/skeleton standing 'in the plumb line' is not functional and will be pushed out easily ("This doesn't work!"), namely at 0:15 and 0:25, he himself actually stands clearly behind the skeletal plumb line. In other words he is leaning backwards a little and has to stiffen his core muscles, build himself a corset, in order not to start tipping backwards. A skeleton that is truly aligned with the plumb line of gravity is far more functional, stable and flexible, so he's actually presenting a visual/physical straw man argument.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Formosa Neijia on Fri Jul 02, 2021 12:44 pm

Bao wrote:Thank you. I can understand Formosa Neijia feeling attacked. I didn't mean to attack anyone and I could have expressed myself better. So I will take responsibility for how I write. It was a bit unnecessary, even though he himself was slightly provocative. But I don't think he meant what he wrote as a general attack on Yang practitioners.

I didn't feel attacked. I was being sincere in appreciating someone having some backbone. Guess I've spent too much time on FB's Yang Family discussion board and I'm tired of mealy-mouthed platitudes. I was missing the old days when we had a good BKF or YJM thread and here's one now, haha.


Bao wrote:
Giles wrote:Does anybody here practice a form where the movements are matched by a fixed breathing pattern? In some kinds of qigong, sure, but in tai chi chuan? I mean, when you practice your form more slowly or faster, what happens then? Do you try to slow down your inhales/exhales radically if you do the form much slower, or speed them as the form gets faster, or in applications? That’s pretty obviously creating strain and seems downright unhealthy. Also goes against all I’ve learned from various good teachers and my own experience.


The funny thing is that YJM has promoted that the best speed is when it takes 60 minutes to do the whole long form. Still he claims that you should coordinate the breath with the movements. I couldn't do this without forcing the length of breathing in and out. My breath would become tense and my chest would feel uncomfortable. Unhealthy is a good way to put it. But they have lots of forced, heavy breathing drills in White Crane, so I guess he brings his theories both from White Crane and Qigong. I've heard several people saying that having strokes is common amongst white crane practitioner. It could just be a myth and I don't know how any white crane practitioner died. But it's interesting that many see forced breathing as unhealthy and dangerous in the long run.

I wrote about breathing in Tai Chi just recently on my blog. One of my points there, which I think is worth repeating, is that one of the keywords in Tai Chi is "ziran", or "natural". Forcing or trying to fix the breath in patterns goes against what is natural for your own body, so it really goes against one of the core principles in all Tai Chi. When the mind and body is calm and relaxed, the breath will become deep and full and it will take care of itself.


Heng and ha breathing are a vital part of the Yang family secret manuscripts translated by Chen Kung and they are as forceful as you can get so there goes the idea of taiji not having forceful breathing methods.

What YJM is talking about is a vital piece of the so-called "internal" and neigong work that shouldn't even be controversial but here we see it being called not taiji. You have to work with the breath DIRECTLY at some point. It's not all hippy-dippy "natural" and just gonna happen on its own no matter how long you practice. The idea is to extend the inhales and the exhales causing you to breath fewer times per minute combined with relaxation that leads to greater efficiency in your moves because you're forcing the cells to work the same with less O2. Think of doing the same movements but breathing slower as you get better. The health benefits to this are enormous.

We all know that "masters" are able to hold their breaths for a long time and supposedly have lower resting heart rates than normal but no one seems to care or knows HOW all of that is supposed to happen. Well there it is above, now you know.

Same applies to moving faster. You have to learn how to breath when moving fast, it's not the same breathing as moving slow, and it's its own training. This is one of the secrets to the fast form. Breath is a vital part of qi. In order to feel more qi, you must expand your breathing by increasing lung capacity and efficiency at the cellular level.

This last part is exactly why someone might want a harder edge to their taiji when solo training -- so they can develop their ability to move quickly and increase lung capacity leading to more qi/health which in turn helps in a fighting situation. People have been combining arts for years probably because they get tired of the dogmatism of "you can't do that, that's not REAL ________" and see how another art might contribute to their practice. Take a deeper look and you'll see Yang style's heng/ha training is similar to white cranes breathing.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 02, 2021 12:48 pm

The clip presented as an understanding of something based on usage

This guy isn't terrible but if this is the 'secret' of YCF's skill then the 'golden age' of tai chi must have been pretty dismal.

Funnily, at the moments where he aims to demonstrate that a body/skeleton standing 'in the plumb line' is not functional and will be pushed out easily ("This doesn't work!"), namely at 0:15 and 0:25, he himself actually stands clearly behind the skeletal plumb line.

In other words he is leaning backwards a little and has to stiffen his core muscles, build himself a corset, in order not to start tipping backwards.

A skeleton that is truly aligned with the plumb line of gravity is far more functional, stable and flexible, so he's actually presenting a visual/physical straw man argument.




why not post one of your clips demoing what you've outlined.



Thought his demo was good, clear, outlined his perspective
with application usage. There parts of it that I may differ with, kind of the nature of things.

It would be good to see one of your clips demoing the points you’ve commented on.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Steve James on Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:03 pm

Afa the (any) "form," the breath should be coordinated with the movement. I don't think that's the same as meaning it's forced. Imo, that's because there's a specific qigong reason/meaning to the movement that isn't strictly related to application. That's because any application can change according to circumstances.

Afa application, however, the breath has to be natural. For one thing, it's necessary to keep breathing; and it's important not to do the natural thing of holding the breath.

The question about how I breathe when grabbing a salt shaker is interesting. I don't think anyone thinks about it. Otoh, even though it probably doesn't make any difference, I'd bet that people are pretty consistent --whether they breathe in or out. The real question is whether it ever makes a difference.

Anyway, in general, I'd say that controlling the exhale is what enables a deeper inhale. So, most of the time, if I'm thinking of the breath at all, it's to make my exhales longer.I can tell a lot about my fitness from the frequency of breaths.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Bao on Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:47 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:Heng and ha breathing are a vital part of the Yang family secret manuscripts translated by Chen Kung and they are as forceful as you can get so there goes the idea of taiji not having forceful breathing methods.


Sure.

You have to work with the breath DIRECTLY at some point.


If you work with breathing patterns, power breathing, you need to do it through special exercises and have good instruction.

I enjoy breath work of different kinds. My friend, a Hunggar lineage holder, taught me the Hunggar Dragon form which is essentially a short and condensed version of the Iron Wire set. Very powerful, based on breathing and sounds. The Neigong in a tai chi form is not designed in the same way. The internal practice is different.

It's not all hippy-dippy "natural" and just gonna happen on its own no matter how long you practice. The idea is to extend the inhales and the exhales causing you to breath fewer times per minute combined with relaxation that leads to greater efficiency in your moves because you're forcing the cells to work the same with less O2. Think of doing the same movements but breathing slower as you get better. The health benefits to this are enormous.


Well, it doesn’t just happen by itself in a hippy-wise manner, you need to practice correctly. The long Yang form is designed to do exactly what you propose here. Very relaxed and slow movement will make the breath slow, deep and full. You will really have what we could call whole body, or at least whole torso breathing. In faster forms like Chen and Sun styles, it’s very hard to relax deeply enough to reach this kind of full breathing.

Same applies to moving faster. You have to learn how to breath when moving fast, it's not the same breathing as moving slow, and it's its own training. This is one of the secrets to the fast form. Breath is a vital part of qi. In order to feel more qi, you must expand your breathing by increasing lung capacity and efficiency at the cellular level.


Yes, this training is also different. So I see no real point comparing traditional slow Yang form training with fast form. However, fast form also requires calmness and relaxation. It’s hard to achieve this in faster form, or “small/fast frame” if you haven’t already learned to control your breath by calming down your mind and relax.

This last part is exactly why someone might want a harder edge to their taiji when solo training -- so they can develop their ability to move quickly and increase lung capacity leading to more qi/health which in turn helps in a fighting situation. People have been combining arts for years probably because they get tired of the dogmatism of "you can't do that, that's not REAL ________" and see how another art might contribute to their practice.


Two good points here, though I am not sure if I would agree completely. I wouldn’t see it necessary to add any “hard edge” in order to be able to move quickly and increase lung capacity.Testing and learning different arts is ok. Combining things is also ok if you can balance them properly. It’s good to learn about other arts, but it’s not necessary to combine arts.

Take a deeper look and you'll see Yang style's heng/ha training is similar to white cranes breathing.


I am not totally convinced. Similar maybe to sounds practice. But I don’t really see the neigong in Hakka arts and in northern IMA as comparable, as there are principles and ideas with quite strong differences. I can see tai chi and White Crane practiced together, side by side, but there will be some conflicting ideas if you try to combine them.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby windwalker on Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:50 pm

I can see tai chi and White Crane practiced together, side by side, but there will be some conflicting ideas if you try to combine them.


Intersting

How would anyone practice any type of physical art without some type of bleed over occurring in the movements methodologies ?
Often happens with Chinese martial arts instructors teaching Taiji as an adjunct to what they normally do.

Can create a lot of confusion with usage and strategy


Having done this to address some issues I felt about Taiji .

"combining Taiji theory and movement, with the unique foot work and long arm of Tibetan White Crane."

Oddly enough in doing so, recently opened up a different perspective negating the need to continue with the project.

TWC in a way attempts to do this with the practice of a set called "cotton needle" preformed very much in a taiji manner.
In some gyms one of the last sets taught in their curriculums, said to focus on, develop internal aspects of the system.




Came to the conclusion that it was not really compatible.
Maybe not due to the same rationale that some expressed for the Hakka systems based white crane.

View the different practices as methodologies that one can use expressing "themselves",
or using themselves, an example of a methodology "itself" expressed.


Had friend a long while back, Hung Gar stylist
They have a set called "iron wire/thread " combining breath, sound and movement as part of their internal practice.

Quite an interesting practice, not my cup of tea.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:24 pm

I find most people who talk about heng /ha have never trained it and can’t really explain it
Iron wire kune is very complex and though I have never learnt it I have had the training explained to me by the teacher who taught me the 24 noi hung of the Wu style
He also learnt the white crane noi gung and needle in cotton set but stopped practicing them after learning the 24 as he thought they were inferior
As for adding white crane stepping to tai chi all I can say is you can not know san shou for it has it all
The guy explaining seven star in the clip above using it as a push shows he dosent get it
It is a short striking hit like a hsing I wood punch
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Bao on Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:26 am

windwalker wrote:
I can see tai chi and White Crane practiced together, side by side, but there will be some conflicting ideas if you try to combine them.


How would anyone practice any type of physical art without some type of bleed over occurring in the movements methodologies ?
Often happens with Chinese martial arts instructors teaching Taiji as an adjunct to what they normally do.

Can create a lot of confusion with usage and strategy


Well, sure. There can be a problem. But I also think that the closer two systems are, the harder they are to separate, or to not influence, each other. I still use some Bagua methods and strategies, but I can't see that they are different from Tai Chi. I could have learned them from Tai Chi and there would be no essential difference. I love Xingyi and its power generation. But as I feel more comfortable with Tai Chi power generation methods, I dropped all of what I learned from XY, but they can be combined. But there is no trace from the hard styles I learned. I could not keep my tai chi shenfa and do things from those arts. It would not be possible, the body methods are too different. So I have no idea how anyone could combine Tai Chi and let's say Karate. Unless you have schizophrenia I guess and can easily step in and out of two completely different body methods as well as state of mind. In those styles, you use your body, balance, alignment, breath and mind completely different and completely opposite from each other.

Had friend a long while back, Hung Gar stylist
They have a set called "iron wire/thread " combining breath, sound and movement as part of their internal practice.

Quite an interesting practice, not my cup of tea.


Incredibly powerful practice. If my Hunggar friend didn't live far away, I might have asked him to teach me. The Dragon which he taught me is a short version. I don't practice it any longer. Don't have the interest and my Tai Chi fills up any need of internal practice. But it's real good stuff.

wayne hansen wrote:I find most people who talk about heng /ha have never trained it and can’t really explain it


From my own view, the sounds should not be used with effort or tensing the breath, that will very much nullify the real effect. Rather the sounds can be low and even silent, and yet they will shape the chest and lungs differently, which will focus the energy differently. If you punch with a "ha", the power will feel like being struck be a sledge hammer, the force spreads out to a bigger surface. Striking with "heng" will focus the force deeper and straight into the opponent.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby robert on Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:36 am

Bao wrote:I can see tai chi and White Crane practiced together, side by side, but there will be some conflicting ideas if you try to combine them.

Training taiji and baihe together doesn't seem uncommon in Taiwan. I don't know anything about baihe, but some of it seems fairly internal. Huang Xingxian did baihe and it looks like he taught it to some of his students.





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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Formosa Neijia on Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:49 am

Bao wrote:
Take a deeper look and you'll see Yang style's heng/ha training is similar to white cranes breathing.


I am not totally convinced. Similar maybe to sounds practice. But I don’t really see the neigong in Hakka arts and in northern IMA as comparable, as there are principles and ideas with quite strong differences. I can see tai chi and White Crane practiced together, side by side, but there will be some conflicting ideas if you try to combine them.


Well first of all, white crane isn't a Hakka art. They are from Fujian and the people speak Min Nan. Hakka are a distinct group with their own language and martial arts usually southern mantis, white eyebrow, dragon, the wanderer system, etc.

I don't remember which branch of crane YJM does but most of the taiji/crane people do CMC taiji and minghe (calling) crane. This version is the softest of the crane systems, in fact the mainlanders say it's been "taiji-ified" as the mainland versions are much harder. If you've read the Bubishi and wondered how calling crane could be the basis of karate and all you saw was the Taiwan calling crane well now you know. So combining these isn't contradictory.

This is Huang laoshi who i had the pleasure of taking a private lesson from. You can see his dantian-driven movements. This is the babulian -- their basic power form.


So what does it mean to "combine" them? No one is popping out crane moves in the middle of their taiji form -- they simply practice both arts and when applied the mixture comes out. Here's a clue: the taiji is mainly used for defense (which it excels at) and the crane is mainly used as offense (which taiji doesn't excel at). This is no different from doing xingyi/bagua, or baji/pigua, or long fist/mantis, tongbei/xingyi, etc. and I can't see why it's even controversial at this point.

It should be noted that the crane jibengong is harsh and the jin patterns along with breathing are taught FIRST which solves many of the problems that taiji has. Taiji is weak in basics and application and teaches jin patterns way too late in the training to do any good. Before people tell me about some one or two teachers somewhere that this doesn't apply to, note that it does apply to 99.9%. The exception to the rule doesn't set the standard.

A much more interesting question would be where does the crane push/sticky hands material come from? I've never heard any explanation of that. Here's feeding crane's version and they are really good at applying this material. A member of the board got his arm broken by one of them in a sparring match a few years ago so again, the proof is in the pudding, not the ingredients.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Formosa Neijia on Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:59 am

wayne hansen wrote:I find most people who talk about heng /ha have never trained it and can’t really explain it
...As for adding white crane stepping to tai chi all I can say is you can not know san shou for it has it all


Heng/ha training isn't nearly common enough, just example one million and one of taiji teachers not taking their arts seriously or trying to teach anything remotely martial. But it's worth digging for.

No one is doing crane for it's stepping patterns LOL. Crane in most formats is notoriously weak in foot work as most crane styles barely move their feet. I was lucky to do the taizu hua he crane style which kept the lively foot work patterns.

Here is my crane teacher who was also a disciple of Xiong Yang-he so he's hip deep in Yang style and the sanshou is one of their main practices. No problem whatsoever in "combining" taiji and crane in application.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Steve James on Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:15 am

This is no different from doing xingyi/bagua, or baji/pigua, or long fist/mantis, tongbei/xingyi, etc. and I can't see why it's even controversial at this point.


Yep. It seems that practicing more than one art is more of an exception tha rule. In practice, unless one is a member of a family with its own art or one begins a martial art without any prior training, one will be exposed to more than one. Some say that learned a martial art ("Red fist"?) before he learned Chen style. Then again, does anyone argue that there was no martial art in Chen village before tjq. And, isn't there the argument that tjq, itself, contains elements of various martial arts. For ex., there are names and hand shapes that clearly don't originate with tjq. I'd argue that it's likely the people who created those names had some experience with the styles they came from. Of course, in the Yang tradition, one of the oldest folk stories is about the (stalemate between0 a snake and a crane.

It was the application of the tjq method to the shape that mattered. One of my teachers from Taiwan was the first to talk about "baguataiji" and "tongbeitaiji" and others. He said many people practiced baji and pigua simultaneously. However, my HK teacher said that "You can learn a dozen styles, but you can only do one at a time."
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby windwalker on Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:39 pm

So what does it mean to "combine" them? No one is popping out crane moves in the middle of their taiji form -- they simply practice both arts and when applied the mixture comes out.

Here's a clue: the taiji is mainly used for defense (which it excels at) and the crane is mainly used as offense (which taiji doesn't excel at). This is no different from doing xingyi/bagua, or baji/pigua, or long fist/mantis, tongbei/xingyi, etc. and I can't see why it's even controversial at this point.

Heres another clue "taiji" is neither offensive or defensive, kinda goes along with the meaning of "taiji"

What is very different besides the foot work is the range that both work and operate in.

TWC has some very unique practices and theories of footwork which among other things it's known for, combined with a unique expression of long arm makes it a very distinctive different art from most others.


It should be noted that the crane jibengong is harsh and the jin patterns along with breathing are taught FIRST which solves many of the problems that taiji has. Taiji is weak in basics and application and teaches jin patterns way too late in the training to do any good.

Before people tell me about some one or two teachers somewhere that this doesn't apply to, note that it does apply to 99.9%. The exception to the rule doesn't set the standard.

A much more interesting question would be where does the crane push/sticky hands material come from? I've never heard any explanation of that. Here's feeding crane's version and they are really good at applying this material. A member of the board got his arm broken by one of them in a sparring match a few years ago so again, the proof is in the pudding, not the ingredients.


No one is doing crane for it's stepping patterns LOL. Crane in most formats is notoriously weak in foot work as most crane styles barely move their feet. I was lucky to do the taizu hua he crane style which kept the lively foot work patterns.


Should be careful about opinions expressed as absolute truths, can become self limiting.

It would appear that some people really don't know much about TWC.

Tibetan white crane is quite different, known for its foot work

Image

https://journeytoemptiness.com/2020/05/09/white-crane/









So what does it mean to "combine" them? No one is popping out crane moves in the middle of their taiji form -- they simply practice both arts and when applied the mixture comes out.


Not quite

With my work It meant "combine" a synthesis of both "combining" aspects I felt neither had alone, a new expression

"蒼鷺太極 combined Taiji theory and movement, with the unique foot work and long arm of Tibetan White Crane.
Focusing on developing functional focused awareness usage, integrated mind and body movement."

as mentioned a project,

" discontinued"
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