Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby windwalker on Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:10 pm

Here is my crane teacher who was also a disciple of Xiong Yang-he so he's hip deep in Yang style and the sanshou is one of their main practices. No problem whatsoever in "combining" taiji and crane in application.


so no one else can have a different experience or opinion ?

The crane styles that many are talking about are quite different, unrelated to TWC...
TWC Closely related to hop gar sharing many of its basic theories and hands

Shifu, David Chin, coaching some of his students for their upcoming matches.

Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:43 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I find most people who talk about heng /ha have never trained it and can’t really explain it
...As for adding white crane stepping to tai chi all I can say is you can not know san shou for it has it all


Heng/ha training isn't nearly common enough, just example one million and one of taiji teachers not taking their arts seriously or trying to teach anything remotely martial. But it's worth digging for.

No one is doing crane for it's stepping patterns LOL. Crane in most formats is notoriously weak in foot work as most crane styles barely move their feet. I was lucky to do the taizu hua he crane style which kept the lively foot work patterns.

Here is my crane teacher who was also a disciple of Xiong Yang-he so he's hip deep in Yang style and the sanshou is one of their main practices. No problem whatsoever in "combining" taiji and crane in application.



Any film of this guy doing tai chi
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Bao on Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:29 pm

Formosa Neijia wrote:the taiji is mainly used for defense (which it excels at) and the crane is mainly used as offense (which taiji doesn't excel at). This is no different from doing xingyi/bagua, or baji/pigua, or long fist/mantis, tongbei/xingyi, etc. and I can't see why it's even controversial at this point.


Taiji has an excellent balance of strategies. Just because people don’t tend to practice set-ups and entering strategies it doesn’t mean that they are not there.

None of those styles you mentioned are controversial to combine together or together with taiji. A strong looking style as Baji can be very soft, and many Northern styles practice exercises that you can find as basic methods of tongbei. In the Chen Taiji village, they studied XY, Tongbei and other art. And for a couple of centuries ago, style was not as a strict concept as today. People studied different methods and exercises and style boundaries were fluid.


How easy styles are to practice together and combine depends on what style/school/Lineage, you combine with what style/school/Lineage. Some are more similar, some are more different. It depends on the body mechanics of the individual school. Of course, if you choose to attain a more general Sanda approach jumpIng around and loosely adapt “techniques” from different styles, and don’t care about developing a certain Shenfa from any style, you can study as many styles as you want and do what the heck you want with the knowledge. But developing a very specific type of Shenfa is like studying and practicing an instrument. It takes a lot of time and effort to become good in playing one instrument, and you can’t just switch from one instrument to another how often as you please, and except to become equally good at all of them. You will probably not master any of them.

I remember a friend who was He Jinbao’s student in Beijing and studied with him for several years. The 8 animals in Yin Bagua are very complex, as 8 individual systems, all with different body mechanics. When He Jinbao started to teach a “soft” animal, I think it was the “Unicorn”, He didn’t want to learn it and was not happy with the switch. He told me that the body method was all too different from the Lion which was his main animal, and that learning the new animal would be like starting from scratch again and he would essentially become a beginner again. He also thought that he needed to spend a couple of more years before he had reach the point where he had reached a level where he would want to learn a new animal.

So this problem or issue about developing and combining certain types of body mechanics can be found within one single style as well.
Last edited by Bao on Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Formosa Neijia on Sat Jul 03, 2021 6:40 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Any film of this guy doing tai chi


Here he is in his mid-60s still doing the whole form at nearly thighs parallel. I don't think doing white crane slowed him down. In fact, doing the Fujian monkey system likely helped develop his kua and pubu skills.



Bao wrote: Of course, if you choose to attain a more general Sanda approach jumpIng around and loosely adapt “techniques” from different styles, and don’t care about developing a certain Shenfa from any style, you can study as many styles as you want and do what the heck you want with the knowledge. But developing a very specific type of Shenfa is like studying and practicing an instrument. It takes a lot of time and effort to become good in playing one instrument, and you can’t just switch from one instrument to another how often as you please, and except to become equally good at all of them. You will probably not master any of them.


The longer I do this stuff the less I'm convinced of this idea that every single sub-art all across China had a distinct shenfa that somehow can't be combined with anything else. it's marketing, pure and simple. I've seen this in person and if you've lived in China or Taiwan, you'll see it too. Teachers have to compete with others in the same park so then blather on and on about their bizarro shenfa which somehow only they know. In the West, there may not be another teacher for 6 hours away. If you have good basics then you can do most anything. For sure, you'll want to specialize and develop one or two systems but I see it these days as matter of only so many hours in the day -- not of competing shenfa.

Bao wrote:I remember a friend who was He Jinbao’s student in Beijing and studied with him for several years. The 8 animals in Yin Bagua are very complex, as 8 individual systems, all with different body mechanics. When He Jinbao started to teach a “soft” animal, I think it was the “Unicorn”, He didn’t want to learn it and was not happy with the switch. He told me that the body method was all too different from the Lion which was his main animal, and that learning the new animal would be like starting from scratch again and he would essentially become a beginner again. He also thought that he needed to spend a couple of more years before he had reach the point where he had reached a level where he would want to learn a new animal.

So this problem or issue about developing and combining certain types of body mechanics can be found within one single style as well.

Sure I faced the same problem in choylifut and hung gar with the animals. You get a favorite animal and you don't want to do the others or you end up doing snake like leopard because you hates snakes or whatever. But all five animals can exist in CLF or HG. You don't violate the principles of taiji by doing white crane any more than you do by learning HG's dragon form when you really would rather be doing tiger.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:51 pm

Thanks for that his tai chi is interesting
By Shen fa I mean the rules tha govern the way a certain art is meant to work
Sure you can mix different arts with diverse Shen Fa but then you come up with a new art with a new Shen Fa
It may be better or worse but it differs
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Bao on Sun Jul 04, 2021 1:57 am

The longer I do this stuff the less I'm convinced of this idea that every single sub-art all across China had a distinct shenfa that somehow can't be combined with anything else. it's marketing, pure and simple.


I don’t know if every single sub style has an absolute unique Shenfa. Some seem to be pretty similar. But it’s not marketing. I am not speaking about theories or repeat what others have said. I am speaking from my own personal experience only. And I can’t speak for anyone else.

But I think you miss the point. A Shenfa is your delivery system. If you want to use a certain type of power generation you need to arrange your body in a certain way. Just take a simple example as playing the piano. You need to sit in a certain comfortable way and cup your hands over the keys so that you can relax and use the strength in the best possible way. Otherwise, your movements when you move over the keys won’t be smooth and you will become tired if you play for a long time. You can compare with music, sports and arts, they all require that you arrange and align your body in a specific way. You can’t just do things however you please, there’s a specific method you need to learn. And to become really good in something takes a lot of time and effort. You never see a a professional concert pianist be the no 1 violinist in another concert. And there’s a good reason for this. (And it’s not about marketing. ;) )

The same way goes for martial arts. If you use different types of power generation and methods that require certain body mechanics, you need to arrange your own body in a certain way. Different styles use different types of body mechanics. So they require that you move and use your balance differently. Some styles do it in a similar way, others are quite different. If you are in a combative situation or do sparring and want to switch between styles that are very differently, you would need to arrange your whole body differently. You would need to switch between footwork, how you use your balance and even breath and mind-set. Like becoming a different person. I don’t say that it’s impossible, but it’s not a self evident thing to do. And it’s not efficient in sparring or in a more real situation. Every traditional style is created as a delivery system, so that you should be able to move smooth between defense and counters, striking and throwing. Switching to a whole other delivery system in the middle of a fight doesn’t make sense.

Earlier I tried and tested styles. I still like Bagua and a Xingyi very much, and I would love to study white crane and other styles if I could live more lives. But as I Practiced XY and BG together with my tai chi, I came to realize that if I was going to take my Tai Chi further, I really needed to focus on it. I didn’t want to become a jack in all trades, but wanted to become as good as I possible could in one art. And Tai Chi has always been my greatest love. Yes, time is surely a great factor. But some plants just cannot grow together in the same soil.

BTW, I liked your teachers Tai Chi. Very good.

wayne hansen wrote:By Shen fa I mean the rules tha govern the way a certain art is meant to work
Sure you can mix different arts with diverse Shen Fa but then you come up with a new art with a new Shen Fa
It may be better or worse but it differs


Yes, Agreed. You would need to develop a new Shenfa. Mostly something in between the arts you study. There’s a good reason why Sun Lutang greatly simplified all of his three styles and made them more similar to each other. The flavor of each style he originally studied are all gone, but there’s also a new flavor that bridges them all. Better or worse depends on what you want to accomplish.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:26 am

Bao wrote:
Yes, Agreed. You would need to develop a new Shenfa. Mostly something in between the arts you study. There’s a good reason why Sun Lutang greatly simplified all of his three styles and made them more similar to each other. The flavor of each style he originally studied are all gone, but there’s also a new flavor that bridges them all. Better or worse depends on what you want to accomplish.


What's the reason? I thought he was just following orders from the Kuomintang? - a) simplify the arts, so we can b) teach them to lots of people, and c) use them to make the people strong.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Bao on Sun Jul 04, 2021 2:44 am

GrahamB wrote:
Bao wrote:
Yes, Agreed. You would need to develop a new Shenfa. Mostly something in between the arts you study. There’s a good reason why Sun Lutang greatly simplified all of his three styles and made them more similar to each other. The flavor of each style he originally studied are all gone, but there’s also a new flavor that bridges them all. Better or worse depends on what you want to accomplish.


What's the reason? I thought he was just following orders from the Kuomintang? - a) simplify the arts, so we can b) teach them to lots of people, and c) use them to make the people strong.


You forgot d) so they can be turned useless for fighting.

I don’t think it was just orders. He could have simply walked away. YCF and Wu Jianquan already did a good work teaching Tai Chi for the masses.

But everyone must have a living, right? Sun Lutang had a body guard school and dealt with security business. But as there were more guns in use, the old school training became obsolete. And if I remember correctly this type of business became illegal. So for SLT, it was a good deal. He already had some recognition and fame, so he was also a good match.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Bao on Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:44 am

Maybe that didn’t answer to the question. The Bagua SLT learned uses a curved spine and extreme twisting. Wu/Hao uses a straight spine but flexible waist and strict angles. Xingyi is usually taught hard and solid first.

Today Sun bagua is taught with a “natural” posture, no special curvature, not much twist and most walk without even sinking. The tai chi has none of the principles of angles and shape that Hao has. And the Xingyi is taught soft and relaxed from the beginning.

It might be a natural development that the extremes are erased. But if you look at the pictures of SLT regardless IMA, his movements are outstretched, there is no slack and he certainly doesn’t look very soft and not sloppy in any way. So something has been lost and I don’t believe it was all SLT’s own fault. In his Bagua book for instance, he writes that there should be a strong twisting of the whole body (he uses the word extreme or utmost, so more than just “strong”). But today you see almost none that got it.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jul 04, 2021 4:43 am

Bao wrote:You forgot d) so they can be turned useless for fighting.



I think you're getting your Communists (1949...) mixed up with your Nationalists (1912...). The Koushu movement was actually quite into fighting alongside health.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Bao on Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:05 am

Fighting? Yes, At least in a controlled form. Chiang Kai-Shek supported the Nainjing Guoshu institute amongst other things. Several of YCF’s and Sun Lutangs students coached Sanda teams. The Kuomintang wanted to preserve the arts but also modernize them to get rid of old superstitious belief. This was something that showed in all of their cultural politics. For instance they banned the whole wuxia culture for the same reasons which resulted in that both authors and a big part of the film industry moved to Hong Kong. Much of this was a result of the earlier May 4th Movement where old Confucian ideals were questioned and Western Science was adapted to many areas. This also led to a change of how people viewed the traditional martial arts.

Here you can read more about the history of the Chinese martial arts cinema where this is mentioned:
https://theculturetrip.com/asia/hong-ko ... se-cinema/
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jul 04, 2021 7:45 am

Bao wrote:Fighting? Yes, At least in a controlled form.


Ah yes, I'd forgotten you don't consider mere combat sports, with actual sparring against resisting opponents, to be "real" fighting.

I don't know why we've taken a left turn into kung fu cinema, but that link is interesting, thanks.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Steve James on Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:21 am

I thought the Nationalists were all about refuting the "weak man of Asia" belief, and so were all about improving physical conditioning and competitions. Wasn't it around this time that millions of people starting exercising in parks? Weren't martial arts fairly esoteric or restricted to certain professions beforehand? Wasn't it the Nationalist recruitment drives that spread knowledge of the various martial arts outside their localities (or temples)?
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby GrahamB on Sun Jul 04, 2021 9:41 am

Steve James wrote:I thought the Nationalists were all about refuting the "weak man of Asia" belief, and so were all about improving physical conditioning and competitions. Wasn't it around this time that millions of people starting exercising in parks? Weren't martial arts fairly esoteric or restricted to certain professions beforehand? Wasn't it the Nationalist recruitment drives that spread knowledge of the various martial arts outside their localities (or temples)?


I think that's generally correct Steve, but I don't think you can say that martial arts was esoteric and restricted before 1912 - it was already "out there" and commercial. It went commercial back in 1836 (Choy Li Fut opens first 'pay for classes' type business) and Tai Chi had been doing a booming business in Beijing around the turn of the century. In terms of "restricted" - I think it's more the case that you had certain stratas of society attracted to different martial arts. CLF was working class factory workers and Wing Chun was middle class, in the same area of China, for example.
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Re: Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming: 108 "Old Yang" Taijiquan Form

Postby Steve James on Sun Jul 04, 2021 10:40 am

It went commercial back in 1836 (Choy Li Fut opens first 'pay for classes' type business) and Tai Chi had been doing a booming business in Beijing around the turn of the century.


Yeah, "esoteric" was an overstatement. I don't have nearly enough knowledge of the specific history. It's interesting that the paid class business/es started so early. Of course, that suggests that students had leisure time and wealth: i.e., not farmers. The "weak man of Asia" idea must have come from somewhere, though, and could have been a myth --promoted by the colonizers. I'm still interested in the beginnings of large group practice in parks and the reasons for it.
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