the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Why post this shit? There is obviously no Tai Chi master in the video. These are getting boring...

cgtomash wrote: Why post this shit?

Agreed. Or rather why make shitty videos like this? Have no idea why they get attention. Obviously two people who have no clue what they are doing.

Any random people would do. Why not post something entertaining or funny instead?

cgtomash wrote:Why post this shit? There is obviously no Tai Chi master in the video. These are getting boring...

Because it's continuing evidence that those who are teaching taichi need to get off their asses and do something, ANYTHING, to fix their art. Notice how any attempt at all goes nowhere, even here. If you attempt to diagnose what's wrong with taiji you get "why don't you go do MMA" thrown at you. Or "the REALZ STUFF is taught in secret." There isn't even a single video of anyone in taiji even looking respectable, let alone decent.

A much better question would be this: WHY DO ALL OF THESE VIDEOS NOT FORCE THE TAIJI COMMUNITY TO FACE REALITY AND IMPROVE?

The taiji community is obviously completely detached from reality.

Bao wrote:

cgtomash wrote: Why post this shit?

Agreed. Or rather why make shitty videos like this? Have no idea why they get attention. Obviously two people who have no clue what they are doing.

The amount of arrogance in the taiji community is unprecedented. Many taiji people really believe taiji is "the grand ultimate fist" and better than every other MA out there instead of that being a bad translation. All kinds of people get offended by the arrogance of taiji people constantly looking down their noses at others while completely ignoring the utter lack of basics and useful application in their own community. Teachers like Ma Baoguo looking like a loon that needs thorazine and electroshock therapy represent the taiji community in fights when no one else will step up reinforces that sentiment and people outside the taiji community enjoy seeing the arrogant brought down to the level that everyone outside the taiji community knows it's at. As long as the arrogance persists and "grandmasters" keep their shenanigans going then these "fights" will continue.

Formosa Neijia wrote: WHY DO ALL OF THESE VIDEOS NOT FORCE THE TAIJI COMMUNITY TO FACE REALITY AND IMPROVE?

What do you feel needs to be improved? How?

I don't think it's really possible to make a law against diluted self-proclaimed fake "masters" to make a fool of themselves in MMA matches.

"There isn't even a single video of anyone in taiji even looking respectable, let alone decent. "

Well there clearly are, but then people say "that's not Tai Chi". (Look up Practical Tai Chi people - plenty of them doing competition clips)

How are you defining "in taiji"?

Well there clearly are, but then people say "that's not Tai Chi".

And, if it "looks" like Tai Chi, someone will say it's not internal. And, that's if it worked and the guy got his hand raised. I've never heard someone suggest that it was TC, but was just low level. Hey, if you can knock a guy out with low level, why use high?

Steve James wrote:

Well there clearly are, but then people say "that's not Tai Chi".

And, if it "looks" like Tai Chi, someone will say it's not internal. And, that's if it worked and the guy got his hand raised. I've never heard someone suggest that it was TC, but was just low level. Hey, if you can knock a guy out with low level, why use high?

I recall a taiji fighter in a full contact tourney using brush knee right out of the form and the consensus was "that's not how that is used." Seriously the taiji community is unfixable. Arts like taiji and bagua are unique among martial arts because no matter how you do them, you're never doing them "the right way" whatever the hell that means. The result is that no amount of effort pays off. I never once at a judo tourney heard "that's not the REAL judo."

As for low level, that's the only way you learn to fight. If you aren't taught fighting right away with basics then you'll never learn with more advanced material. Hong Yi-xiang taught people to kick ass in leitai tourneys in 3 years. Now it takes 20 years and they still can't do it. The first hour of class was 100s of pushups, squats, crawling across the floor using only your shoulder blades, etc. but now all of that got thrown out as "external," sparring is gone and no one can put 2 and 2 together and make 4. It's all so incredibly boring.

Formosa Neijia wrote:I recall a taiji fighter in a full contact tourney using brush knee right out of the form and the consensus was "that's not how that is used." Seriously the taiji community is unfixable. Arts like taiji and bagua are unique among martial arts because no matter how you do them, you're never doing them "the right way" whatever the hell that means. The result is that no amount of effort pays off."

As for low level, that's the only way you learn to fight. If you aren't taught fighting right away with basics then you'll never learn with more advanced material. Hong Yi-xiang taught people to kick ass in leitai tourneys in 3 years. Now it takes 20 years and they still can't do it.

These sweeping blanket statements undoubtedly reflect the typical experience of all the hobby enthusiasts who practice solely for fitness exercise or for movement meditation, etc, but certainly don't reflect my personal experience in learning and training IMA's as effective soft style boxing arts and as proven methods of internal kungfu development. That said, I realize that learning opportunities and experiences differ considerably nowadays, so ymmv.

That said, I realize that learning opportunities and experiences differ considerably nowadays, so ymmv.

I think that's the key. The people claiming to represent tjq in these videos have no experience. Clearly, that wasn't always the case. It's not a question of whether or not tjq works --for anyone with the experience to know that it works.

I think the complaint is that tjq people make extraordinary claims, but don't offer ordinary proofs. Of course, they don't have to do either. As you say, it's not necessary for people to go to competitions. There's nothing to prove. Saying that one practices "for health" or "for fun" is perfectly all right --and not even any of my business.

The more serious problem is when people are told they're learning an effective martial art, but are not really learning self defense. Otoh, I don't think the problem is learning forms. It's what's not learned that causes issues. Imo, some things can only be learned from an opponent --hopefully a friendly one first.

While the tai chi guy gave up. He was clearly winded after a few exertions, had no timing of control of distance to speak of, but he at least tried to do a couple moves from his martial art.

Although you should probably make sure you know how to fight before you claim you know how to fight. At least he stepped up for the learning experience.

The problem with tai ch in popular circles is that they don't spar, let alone fight. Even the local taekwondo place basically got rid of sparring 15 years ago because people didn't want to. Then they convince themselves that they can somehow fight without ever PRACTICING FIGHTING. That is like a kid thinking he can be a army ranger because he plays Call of Duty.

Regarding the OP clip.
There's nothing to substantiate the claim of the person being a Taiji practitioner let alone a master of it,
other then the channels commentator using it to illustrate a narrative.

Some have questioned or suggested in the “taiji” world most practitioners can not even agree with “what” is taiji.

A little different viewpoint

Most people who practice taiji intuitively know and understand what it is that "they" practice.
Often they can not do, what they feel they know, a problem for some.
Generates a constant search outside themselves for validation of what they feel they know.

Tends to generate comments based on inconsistencies between what they feel they know
cannot do, and what's presented as something they know, in use.

While those who know and can do, often don’t feel a need seek validation outside of themselves.
Nor a need to be concerned with the practice of others outside of themselves.

With CMA, historically and now, there is a problem of those claiming to be practitioners not able to use what they say they practice in a live setting.
One of the reasons why so much attention is paid to those who claim to represent a certain style or method out of CMA

Seems to be true of any CMA style.

Some will point to others doing so claiming CMA representation,
showing no appreciable difference between what they do and those who who do not practice CMA.
Why claim its CMA based ?



Boxer’s, Judoist, BJJ, Sumo. Ect don't seem to have this problem.

Those who practice these arts, are easily recognizable as being practitioners of their respective practices.
Movements easily identifiable as originating from those methods.

Never seem to hear or see someone commenting on the “single whip” or “grasping the birds tail” that someone used.
In this clip its quite clear and understood, the what, and how something was used and where it comes from


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy0-Dt9mPiI

Doc Stier wrote:These sweeping blanket statements undoubtedly reflect the typical experience of all the hobby enthusiasts who practice solely for fitness exercise or for movement meditation, etc, but certainly don't reflect my personal experience in learning and training IMA's as effective soft style boxing arts and as proven methods of internal kungfu development. That said, I realize that learning opportunities and experiences differ considerably nowadays, so ymmv.

I don't know what any of my statements had to do with length of practice but i always did 4-5 hours a day so if that's "hobbyist" level then that's fine with me. I also specified fighting, not exercise or as a moving meditation.

DeusTrismegistus wrote:While the tai chi guy gave up. He was clearly winded after a few exertions, had no timing of control of distance to speak of, but he at least tried to do a couple moves from his martial art.

The degree that IMA fail to train the breath while constantly talking about neigong-this and qigong-that is simply amazing. Any work with qi at all necessitates work with the breath but we see often see that missing. Evidence once again that "breath naturally" doesn't cut it. As I have heard many times, teachers really do expect forms work (and done at a snail's pace, at that) to perform every function needed in a MA. No doubt he will take this defeat as evidence that he needs to relax and "sink the qi to the dantian" more.

Greetings Formosa N,

Doc pointed out that you make sweeping blanket statements about others Taiji
You then follow up with another post that makes sweeping blanket statements

You talk about the lack of Taiji people not being able to fight with Taiji.
Okay.
Got it.
Thanks.

But, your own posts greatly lacks how to use Taiji in a fight

You say you practiced a lot of Taiji daily for many years.
Prove it.
Post something besides sweeping complaints about other people & fake flamboyant Taiji Charlatans

I am very interest in what YOU, Formosa Neijia, can Do.

Please, post something constructive
Show us how to use Taiji in a fight

Trip wrote:Greetings Formosa N,
Doc pointed out that you make sweeping blanket statements about others Taiji
You then follow up with another post that makes sweeping blanket statements
You talk about the lack of Taiji people not being able to fight with Taiji.
Okay.
Got it.
Thanks.
But, your own posts greatly lacks how to use Taiji in a fight
You say you practiced a lot of Taiji daily for many years.
Prove it.

Greetings. No, I won't. People are upset that these videos keep getting made/posted and I suggested why. My "sweeping statements" aren't the problem, the lack of knowledge in the taiji community is. As has been pointed out, these videos even show a lack of basic aerobic training, likely because "that's not internal" or it involves sweating, both of which are verboten in taiji according to some/many?/most?.

In the past i defended a video I already mentioned: a leitai tourney fight where the fighter was Yang style, he won, and even did it with a recognizable taiji technique so it looked like taiji (the holy grail, apparently) and even that was denigrated.

The obvious problem is that the taiji community in general doesn't value this material at all and most taiji teachers don't have it so the style doesn't prepare you to fight or compete. If the individual transcends the style limitations and develops it on his own, he will get no credit for doing so. So rather than put myself out there for ridicule in a style that doesn't value it, i simply also do other styles where sparring/fighting is more accepted and I can develop cardio, strength, etc.

You want something constructive? Here's why aerobic training is a vital part of the internal paradigm and how to develop it.